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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / December 2006Nikon F2 photomic & nikkormat EL are pre-AI?
I'm looking at a 50mm f/1.2 MF lens but the seller wants to sell the body also, which I wouldn't mind if I could use my G lenses on it. Are the nikon F2 photomic and/or nikkormat EL pre-AI type bodies and will they be able to control a G lens with no aperture ring? I don't see either of those bodies on this chart: <http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/nikon_articles/other/compatibility.html> This chart doesn't mention G lens compatibility: http://www.nikonlinks.com/unklbil/bodylens.htm Hmm, maybe I answered my question here: <http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonf2/prisms/index6.htm> "Some of the AI-spec Nikkor lenses introduced in later stages such as Nikon Series E lens family and ALL the current AF-Nikkor optics are NOT advisable to use with a non-AI camera such as the F2 Photomic, F2S and F2SB featured earlier (although they can still be mounted on the camera and in many instances, Stopped Down Exposure measurement is equally accurate)." and: <http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikkormat/elseries/el/in dex.htm> "EL was the first Nikon which provided Aperture Priority AE - in 1972" I'm still not getting a clear answer on the use of a G lens without an aperture ring though. > I'm looking at a 50mm f/1.2 MF lens but the seller wants to sell the > body also, which I wouldn't mind if I could use my G lenses on it. > > Are the nikon F2 photomic and/or nikkormat EL pre-AI type bodies and > will they be able to control a G lens with no aperture ring? The F2 - depending on which version of the Photomic is mounted - may or may not be AI. IIRC the Nikkormat EL is not AI and the EL2 is - but I'm not sure of that. None of these classic Nikon cameras will work with a G lens (IMHO why use such junk anyway - meaning the G lenses?). Also, as far as I've heard, the 50 f/1.2 isn't an especially good lens (as opposed to the Noct-Nikkor of the same aperture). >> I'm looking at a 50mm f/1.2 MF lens but the seller wants to sell the >> body also, which I wouldn't mind if I could use my G lenses on it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > None of these classic Nikon cameras will work with a G lens (IMHO why > use such junk anyway - meaning the G lenses?). I've got some very nice G lenses! 70-200/2.8VR 105/2.8 VR micro & a full frame Sigma 12-24, which I've seen used most often on a Canon 5D, it's the widest rectilinear full frame lens available. > Also, as far as I've heard, the 50 f/1.2 isn't an especially good lens > (as opposed to the Noct-Nikkor of the same aperture). Bjorn R. gives it an excellent rating among others. The 58/1.2 noct costs as much as a nice automobile and I'm looking at $40 for this so maybe I'll just get the EL for another $50 & re-sell it. They are asking $250 for the F2, who knows if it even works. >>> I'm looking at a 50mm f/1.2 MF lens but the seller wants to sell the >>> body also, which I wouldn't mind if I could use my G lenses on it. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > frame Sigma 12-24, which I've seen used most often on a Canon 5D, it's > the widest rectilinear full frame lens available. Well, if you're a Sigma fan... (and the Cosina/Voigtländer 12mm is just as wide and undoubtedly better) >> Also, as far as I've heard, the 50 f/1.2 isn't an especially good lens >> (as opposed to the Noct-Nikkor of the same aperture). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > maybe I'll just get the EL for another $50 & re-sell it. They are asking > $250 for the F2, who knows if it even works. I haven't used it, but everything I've read says that the Nikkor 50 f/1.2 is *not* a very good lens. A good sample of the Nikkor 50 f/1.4 should blow it away. F2 cameras tend to work indefinitely (with the exception of the Photomics - though they can be repaired). Ask yourself *why* you need or want a f/1.2 lens... >> I've got some very nice G lenses! 70-200/2.8VR 105/2.8 VR micro & a >> full frame Sigma 12-24, which I've seen used most often on a Canon 5D, >> it's the widest rectilinear full frame lens available. > > Well, if you're a Sigma fan... > (and the Cosina/Voigtländer 12mm is just as wide and undoubtedly better) Well, that's a rangefinder. >>> Also, as far as I've heard, the 50 f/1.2 isn't an especially good >>> lens (as opposed to the Noct-Nikkor of the same aperture). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > f/1.2 is *not* a very good lens. A good sample of the Nikkor 50 f/1.4 > should blow it away. It's supposed to have quite nice bokeh. It's supposed to handle flare quite well for it's class too. Oddly the 58/noct rates poorer on this MTF chart: http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Ew8i&tag= > Ask yourself *why* you need or want a f/1.2 lens... Low light shooting of course, street shooting & in the woods. It should make a great '75mm' portrait lens. Could be handy reversed on the 105 macro, less vignetting, lots of interesting possibilities. Closeups with an extension tube even (better light for focus control). And only $40! >> I haven't used it, but everything I've read says that the Nikkor 50 >> f/1.2 is *not* a very good lens. A good sample of the Nikkor 50 f/1.4 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > quite well for it's class too. Oddly the 58/noct rates poorer on this > MTF chart: It only proves that MTF charts are for morons that don't take pictures. Charts don't show the desirable characteristics in a lens. The old Noct set the standard for bokeh in real world use. Ask any Canon FF user and they will tell you how much they love the old Noct. Rita >>> I haven't used it, but everything I've read says that the Nikkor 50 >>> f/1.2 is *not* a very good lens. A good sample of the Nikkor 50 f/1.4 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the standard for bokeh in real world use. Ask any Canon FF user and they > will tell you how much they love the old Noct. Well there's real world photos on that page too. I'm sure the noct is nicer but this looks very exciting to me for $40. I don't see anything but creamy bokeh in these samples: http://www.pbase.com/cameras/nikon/50_12_ais for example: http://www.pbase.com/image/66325660 http://www.pbase.com/image/38673766 >> It only proves that MTF charts are for morons that don't take >> pictures. Charts don't show the desirable characteristics in a lens. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > nicer but this looks very exciting to me for $40. I don't see anything > but creamy bokeh in these samples: There's no doubt the 50/1.4 and 1.2 are nice lenses for the price. Now here is how legendary bokeh is properly done using the old Noct and a 5D. http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2006/warbler.htm Rita >>> It only proves that MTF charts are for morons that don't take >>> pictures. Charts don't show the desirable characteristics in a lens. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2006/warbler.htm Oh well, it turns out it's a pre-AI lens so probably not worth the hassle to get it modified. There's no holes in the indexing prongs and she said it has to be set to f/5.6 to mount??? And who knows how good the optics are for that older version. > she said it has to be set to f/5.6 to mount??? The little "D" shaped flange that sticks up has to be centered on the lens in order to engage the aperture lever in the finder when mounting the lens. Hence the name "AI" which is Automatic Indexing -- mount the lens set at whatever aperture and it hooks into the body's aperture interlock by a groove cut in the edge of the aperture ring. "E" lenses only worked with the EM (1978) IIRC. They were el-cheapo, right after Nikon abandoned the "No Plastic On Nikons!" policy. A friend of mine had the EM system in college and it sucked. A lens (for example a G lens with no aperture ring) isn't meant to work well on older bodies. Camera manufacturers want you up to date with their equipment; never mind that the 55mm Micro Nikkor was the sharpest lens they ever made (Hey, it's just my _opinion_!!) jf  Signaturej fabian looked good on paper email address subject to subtraction >> she said it has to be set to f/5.6 to mount??? Not on a Photomic FTn & on F2 Photomics - you do have to "index" the lenses after mounting by rotating the aperture ring from at least f/5.6 to fully open (in practice fully close then fully open). > The little "D" shaped flange that sticks up has to be centered on the > lens in order to engage the aperture lever in the finder when mounting > the lens. Only on Nikkormat & pre-FTn Photomics... > "E" lenses only worked with the EM (1978) IIRC. Nope... Just the same as AI >>>> It only proves that MTF charts are for morons that don't take >>>> pictures. Charts don't show the desirable characteristics in a lens. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > she said it has to be set to f/5.6 to mount??? And who knows how good > the optics are for that older version. Update: I emailed a guy who does conversions and he said this: "It sounds like you are looking at what is sometimes described as a K-series lens. [note from paul: I can't find anything about that on google]It has the cosmetics of the AI lenses (rubber focus collar, fine metal center ring, pyramid-knurled aperture ring), but it is a non-AI lens. I can easily modify these to be AI compatible and work with your D200 while still being fully backward compatible with any of the non-AI Nikon bodies." That was in response to my comment that: "There are no other markings on the front such as NIKKOR-H AUTO or NIKKOR-S or Nippon Kogaku Japan so it would seem to be (relatively) recent." >Update: I emailed a guy who does conversions and he said this: >"It sounds like you are looking at what is sometimes described as a >K-series lens. [note from paul: I can't find anything about that on >google]It has the cosmetics of the AI lenses (rubber focus collar, fine >metal center ring, pyramid-knurled aperture ring), but it is a non-AI >lens. I guess you didn't google long enough: <http://ronhashiro.htohananet.com/photography/nikkor-mounts.html> I don't know why they are called 'K'. SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency > Oh well, it turns out it's a pre-AI lens so probably not worth the > hassle to get it modified. There's no holes in the indexing prongs and > she said it has to be set to f/5.6 to mount??? And who knows how good > the optics are for that older version. If the price is right its well worth modding, just bought an old but immaculate 1.4 and Ai conversion is on the list when I get one thats a user rather a collectable, as for how good the optics are, somewhat better than some of the newer ones £ for £, $ for $! ). > Bjorn R. gives it an excellent rating among others. The 58/1.2 noct costs > as much as a nice automobile and I'm looking at $40 for this so maybe I'll > just get the EL for another $50 & re-sell it. They are asking $250 for the > F2, who knows if it even works. My F2 with DP-1 finder definitely still works. These cameras are very very rugged. For that matter, I also own an S2 whose serial number and cosmetics place it as a 1955 model. It still works as well as it ever did. Jim > I'm looking at a 50mm f/1.2 MF lens but the seller wants to sell the body > also, which I wouldn't mind if I could use my G lenses on it. > > Are the nikon F2 photomic and/or nikkormat EL pre-AI type bodies and will > they be able to control a G lens with no aperture ring? In the case of the F2, the finder determines whether you need AI or pre-AI. Which finder does it have? Neither body can control a G lens. Jim > I don't see either of those bodies on this chart: > <http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/nikon_articles/other/compatibility.html> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I'm still not getting a clear answer on the use of a G lens without an > aperture ring though. > I'm still not getting a clear answer on the use of a G lens without an > aperture ring though. The short answer is that G lenses are virtually useless on manual focus bodies. While in an emergency you might be able to record an image by using one, if you want to use the G lenses you're far better off buying an inexpensive AF body like an N/F75. SignatureMichael Benveniste -- mhb-offer@clearether.com Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $250. Use this email address only to submit mail for evaluation. > The short answer is that G lenses are virtually useless on manual focus > bodies. The aperture is also not manually controllable on older auto-focus bodies like the F4 - auto-focus alone won't do. They can be used on cameras with shutter priority or program auto-exposure but only in auto mode, no bulb exposure or DOF preview. For G lenses in general you want a modern-style body with the control wheels and the LCD display on the top plate. SOW [SOW, is 'speaking of which' a GDA?], is there a Nikon body that has proper DOF preview in auto exposure mode? SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com >SOW [SOW, is 'speaking of which' a GDA?], is there a Nikon >body that has proper DOF preview in auto exposure mode? That is called stop-down metering. Works on the FE, F3, F4, F5. (but it's not really all that practical). Just disable the Ai coupling. SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency > Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com> wrote: > > is there a Nikon body that has proper DOF preview > > in auto exposure mode? > > That is called stop-down metering. The key phrase in the question was "in auto exposure mode". I imagine it would have to be a body with DOF preview done electronically. And how anyone can even _think_ about making an SLR w/o DOF preview is beyond me. It is the whole reason for having an SLR [with the exception of macro, and then one can just get a Visoflex...]. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com >> Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com> wrote: >>> is there a Nikon body that has proper DOF preview >>> in auto exposure mode? >> That is called stop-down metering. > > The key phrase in the question was "in auto exposure mode". And why can you not use AE stopped down? >> Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com> wrote: >> > is there a Nikon body that has proper DOF preview [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I imagine it would have to be a body with DOF preview done >electronically. No, with stop down metering it also works in aperure priority mode. I tried it on my F4. SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency > Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com> wrote: > > > Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No, with stop down metering it also works in aperure priority mode. I > tried it on my F4. Yes, DOF works in aperture priority auto: stop down or no 'stop down metering'. Though I am not sure what you mean by automatic 'stop down metering' - flipping the little AI tab up and pushing the DOF button while firing the shutter? I see I miss-worded my query, let me restate: Is there a camera where DOF works with shutter-priority or program auto exposure? On my F4 pushing the DOF button in 'S' and 'P' stops the lens down all the way. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com > Is there a camera where DOF works with shutter-priority > or program auto exposure? Probably not. SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency > > Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com> wrote: > > > is there a Nikon body that has proper DOF preview [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I imagine it would have to be a body with DOF preview done > electronically. No, it works fine on the F3, as long as you disable the AI meter coupling (flip the tab out of the way). If the lens doesn't support AI meter coupling, there may not even be a need to flip the tab out of the way -- for example, I often use autoexposure on the F3 with my 35mm f/2.8 PC lens, which is a preset lens with no auto diaphragm. I don't believe the F3 is unique in this regard, either. A bit more esoteric, but the high speed F3H offers autoexposure at stopped down shooting aperture. In order to achieve its high speed, it keeps the lens stopped down all the time, except when you press the button that's located where the DoF preview button is on a regular F3. That button holds the aperture OPEN while you keep it pressed. >I'm looking at a 50mm f/1.2 MF lens but the seller wants to sell the >body also, which I wouldn't mind if I could use my G lenses on it. > >Are the nikon F2 photomic and/or nikkormat EL pre-AI type bodies and >will they be able to control a G lens with no aperture ring? No. For G lenses you need at least a body that can control the aperture. If it is not AF, then forget about G lenses. Even if it is AF, you may be limited to program and shutter priority modes. SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency |
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