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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / December 2006Small SLR for travel
Hello - I've been through a lot of the posts and still have some questions. My wife and I have two point and shoots that we bring with us when we travel - an Olympus and a Yashica. It's the old problem of wanting more in a camera but not wanting much more in size. We can fit these in our pockets and normally don't have problems with the pictures. We got back from Utah though and have a lot of washed out prints. Is there something about the same size that's a manual SLR where we can bracket, play with the shutter speed and f stops? Something that we can still fit in a jacket or vest pocket? I'd rather not bring our SLRs that we have now just because of the weight and bulk. I have a feeling I'm asking for too much and may have to bring the SLRs we have but would love to find out that there is something out there. Thanks for any help or suggestions. > Hello - > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I have a feeling I'm asking for too much and may have to bring the SLRs > we have but would love to find out that there is something out there. My smallest and lightest kit is actually a rangefinder, though, because of its all-metal construction (Leica M6), the weight savings over a SLR aren't that big. You could save some weight & cost by using one of the Voigtländer Bessa bodies. One of the nice things about that kit is that the lenses really are tiny - especially the Cosina/Voigtländer 15mm & 21mm, which together add up to be about half the size & weight of a compact 50mm. Other tiny & very sharp lenses I like: The Zeiss 35mm & 85mm f/2.8 versions (I use them on a Rolleiflex SLR, where a good and very small Mamiya-made 21mm is also available). Your best bet is probably to use those on a light Contax body. Other cameras to consider: The Pentax MX is probably the smallest SLR ever built. I don't really like Olympus OM cameras, but YMMV... > My smallest and lightest kit is actually a rangefinder, though, because > of its all-metal construction (Leica M6), the weight savings over a SLR [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Mamiya-made 21mm is also available). Your best bet is probably to use > those on a light Contax body. Indeed, here a Contax Aria would be the best choice. -- Hans >> My smallest and lightest kit is actually a rangefinder, though, because >> of its all-metal construction (Leica M6), the weight savings over a SLR [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Indeed, here a Contax Aria would be the best choice. > -- Hans Silly question maybe, but will the lenses for a Rollei SL 35 work on this body? I believe I read once that the contax 35mm mount == the rollei 35mm mount. But I'm not sure.  SignatureJan Keirse - +32 (0)485/089.786 http://jankeirse.free.fr >>> My smallest and lightest kit is actually a rangefinder, though, because >>> of its all-metal construction (Leica M6), the weight savings over a SLR [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I believe I read once that the contax 35mm mount == the rollei 35mm mount. But > I'm not sure. Sorry, no. M42 (Pentax screw mount) will work well on a Rolleiflex body - with an adaptor. There is an adapter for using Rolleiflex lenses with a canon EF mount - might be my future solution for using good lenses with a Canon 5d... > Hello - > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks for any help or suggestions. Digital or film? Old or new? > > Hello - > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Old or new? Sorry about that - I'm talking about film, not digital. I'd be interested in old or new, but have been looking mostly at older models - that could be anything from 5 years and older. Thanks "fred" <david.machenry@cigna.com> wrote in message >> > Is there something about the same size that's a manual SLR where we can >> > bracket, play with the shutter speed and f stops? Something that we >> > can still fit in a jacket or vest pocket? I'd rather not bring our >> > SLRs that we have now just because of the weight and bulk. You don't say what lenses you will need, or why you consider your present SLR to be inappropriate. The Olympus OM-1 was a pretty small SLR, and it set the stage for Pentax's introduction of the "M" ("Miniature") series of bodies and lenses. I don't think that you will get an SLR that is significantly smaller than those cameras. If you want both manual AND automatic operation, look at the "P" series from Pentax (Sorry, I am unfamiliar with other brands, although I am certain that there are alternatives out there). The P3n or the P30t were only 1 millimeter taller than the original OM-1, and they were designed for the "A" series of automatic lenses (manual focusing, but automatic exposure). Both of those 2 models features metered manual mode, where YOU set the shutter and aperture and you could accept the TTL meter;s recommended settings or use whatever you wanted. There was also Program mode, where the camera selected the fastest available shutter speed possible for the shot, based on film speed. Great to stop action, but no control over the DOF because the camera set the aperture. Also has shutter priority automatic mode, where YOU set the aperture and the camera sets the shutter speed (stepless from 1 second to 1/1000) for correct exposure. That is the mode that I use most. Finally there is an automatic flash mode when a dedicated Pentax flash is used. The "A" lenses, especially the normal lenses, are repudiated to have been among the sharpest that Pentax ever designed. You can get them on eBay, including lens, for under $100. I own 4 of them, all purchased on eBay, and they all arrived in mint condition, because they were typically purchased originally by amateurs and saw little use. A lot of amateurs shot only a roll or two per year, so even after 15 years, the cameras had only 20 or 30 rolls run through them. They had Seiko-Asahi electronic shutters that were more accurate than the cloth-curtain shutters used in the older Spotmatics. They were lightweight and very easy to carry about on a neck strap all day long. I use them as my walkabout cameras, rather than overwork my Spotmatics and ES models. I believe that they represent the best bang for the buck in film SLRs without autofocus. And there are a number of low-priced zoom lenses available if you require additional focal range. I carry a couple in my bag, but I almost always use the 50mm f/1.7 SCMP-A normal lens. If you decide to get one of these cameras (the P3n is black and the P30t is titanium - gray) be sure to avoid the earlier model P3 or P30, because those models did not have shutter-priority automatic mode, only program mode. They sell for the same prices as their better cousins, because most people don't know the difference, but you will definitely want the later models P3n or P30t. They're so cheap you can get a couple of them as backups, and I found them to be all I needed in terms of features. > "fred" <david.machenry@cigna.com> wrote in message >>>> Is there something about the same size that's a manual SLR where we can [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > or P30t. They're so cheap you can get a couple of them as backups, and I > found them to be all I needed in terms of features. I second everything Jeremy says. I was going to recommend the tiny Pentaxes but I don't think they're significantly smaller than the OM. Personally I have a couple of ME Supers that I use for portability, when my T90 is just too huge and noisy. I would be considering a small rangefinder camera if I wanted anything smaller, although there may be a few AF compact cameras with manual modes. Certainly quite a few digital compacts have manual modes; I have an old Nikon Coolpix 4300 that has manual/Av/Tv/Program modes and even give manual focus as if this was possible on the LCD! Richard's comments made me remember the T90s little brother, the T70. I have one and it's pretty darn small (compared to the T90 and/or the EOS 20D.) A couple of AA batteries and a snappy compact FD zoom and "Bob's yer uncle..." as they say. Just another opionion, FWIW... Good Luck Jay Beckman Chandler, AZ www.pbase.com/flyingphotog > Richard's comments made me remember the T90s little brother, the T70. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > A couple of AA batteries and a snappy compact FD zoom and "Bob's yer > uncle..." as they say. Nice but still no smaller than the OM, and heavier. > Hello - > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in our pockets and normally don't have problems with the pictures. We > got back from Utah though and have a lot of washed out prints. Take a look at the negatives and see if the washed out areas have detail in them. A lot of labs don't pay much attention to whether they are blowing out the highlights in a print. My solution to this was to get a film scanner and do my own prints. It is amazing how much better of a print you can get this way. But film scanning is a pain and takes a lot of time, it is better in a lot of ways to get a digital camera, and they do make many that are very small. I even have a DSLR, the Canon 350D, that is pretty small and light. Scott > > Hello - > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Scott Scott - Thanks. I've thought about scanning and doing our own prints but I'll have to wait awhile for that. As far as digital cameras go, I don't know - for now, I'm going to stick to film. > I've thought about scanning and doing our own prints but I'll have to > wait awhile for that. As far as digital cameras go, I don't know - for > now, I'm going to stick to film. Well if you are going to stick with film you might want to look at some of the range finder cameras on ebay. A lot of these are going to take as good or better photos as a SRL but will be a lot smaller. Also if you are going to stick with film scanning will improve you prints greatly. Scott > We can fit these > in our pockets and normally don't have problems with the pictures. We > got back from Utah though and have a lot of washed out prints. > > Is there something about the same size that's a manual SLR >SNIP< For an SLR, you're not going to find anything that's pocketable. One of the smaller SLRs is the Nikon FM family. I have an FM2n, which is fully manual, not auto anything. It won't fit in pockets, though. SLRs are larger because they have a penta-prism on top, they need room front-to-back for the mirror to swing up, and the lenses are designed not to intrude into the camera so they aren't hit by the mirror. If you want a pocketable 35mm camera, I'd suggest sticking with the range-finder/view-finder style you seem to be using. I don't follow point and shoot cameras, so I can't offer suggestions on which offer manual controls. Googling the phrase 35mm rangefinder brings http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/jrp_faq/jrp_faq_what_camera/faq_ what_camera_35mm_rangefinder.html which has brief descriptions and a link to some point and shoot cameras http://www.ph.utexas.edu/~yue/misc/rangfndr.html and lots of eBay hits. Good luck. SignaturePhil Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed The Civilized Explorer | spam and read later. email from this URL http://www.cieux.com/ | http://www.civex.com/ is read daily. > For an SLR, you're not going to find anything that's pocketable. One of > the smaller SLRs is the Nikon FM family. I have an FM2n, which is fully > manual, not auto anything. It won't fit in pockets, though. My Pentax 110 SLR fits nicely into a pocket, but I prefer to use the belt clip. Alas, it's a program-mode only model. In the Nikon line, the FG and N/F55 are both smaller than the FM2. I think the smallest readily available Nikon SLR is the APS-based Pronea S. I have one of these as my "car camera", and with a lens like the 45mm f/2.8P you probably _could_ fit it in a large pocket. The Pronea S does not offer full manual operation, but does offer shutter- and aperture- priority modes with exposure compensation. SignatureMichael Benveniste -- mhb-offer@clearether.com Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $250. Use this email address only to submit mail for evaluation. > In the Nikon line, the FG and N/F55 are both smaller than the FM2. I recall the original poster saying used up to five years old, but I could have misread it - I had an FG myself, and it is smaller, but not much and not pocketable, and it would be older than 5 years. I'm unfamiliar with the '55. > I think the smallest readily available Nikon SLR is the APS-based > Pronea S. APS? Feh. :-> SignaturePhil Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed The Civilized Explorer | spam and read later. email from this URL http://www.cieux.com/ | http://www.civex.com/ is read daily. > > In the Nikon line, the FG and N/F55 are both smaller than the FM2. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The Civilized Explorer | spam and read later. email from this URL > http://www.cieux.com/ | http://www.civex.com/ is read daily. Thanks to everyone - this is great. I never expected this much help so quickly. I have a lot to work with here and will start looking at the cameras you've mentioned. I don't really know anything about rangefinders, but I've been reading up on them too. The cameras can be any age - I just mentioned 5 years and older because I'm thinking used will be cheaper than new and there's probably not many film cameras out there that are new and that would fit my criteria. If anyone has any more advice I'm open to anything. Thanks again. > If anyone has any more advice I'm open to anything. For manual focus 35mm SLR look at the Olympus OM series, the Contax Aria, and (now don't faint) the Leica R4. Used Leica reflex equipment is priced extremely low these days, and there is a lot of it out there. For manual focus rangefinder 35mm with interchangeable lenses look at the Leica M3, M2, or M6; the Leitz-Minolta CL (which takes almost all Leica M lenses); and the Cosina/Voigtlander Bessa series which also take most Leica lenses. Bear in mind that rangefinders are least accurate with long lenses, so if you want something longer than 90 - 135, SLR is best. For autofocus rangefinder 35mm with interchangeable lenses look at the Contax G2 or the Konica Hexxar. For point-and-shoot on steroids (everything manually overridable) look for a Nikon 28ti (28mm/2.8 lens), a Nikon 35ti (35mm/2.8 lens), a Ricoh G-1S (28mm/2.8 lens), or a Contax T3 (35mm/2.8 lens). For the same with zoom look at the Contax TVS-3. These are all very expensive for p/s, but they have excellent glass and engineering. Hope this helps, jon Signaturej fabian looked good on paper email address subject to subtraction > point and shoots ... We > got back from Utah though and have a lot of washed out prints. Try getting them re-printed, it is pretty hard to overexpose negative film to the point one can't get a decent print out of it. Some camera stores have tech's that do know how to use the equipment, as opposed to Aunt Henrietta at the Rx DrugMart. > Is there something about the same size that's a manual SLR where we can > bracket, play with the shutter speed and f stops? Something that we > can still fit in a jacket or vest pocket? A pocketable SLR -- not in full frame. There are the 1/2 frame Olympus Pen's. And the 110 Pentax - film's a bit of a problem. If you don't need lens interchangeability there are quite a few folders to consider: Retina IIA [make sure it works/get return privileges], Voigtlander Vito III, Zeiss Contessa. Then there are the compact 1970's cameras: Canon Canonette GL17, Olympus 35SP, Rollie 35. A bit more modern is the Minox 35GT. The Olympus XA isn't strictly manual but you can futz the ASA by yourself, I don't like them but some swear by them. And then there is a screw mount Leica or Voigtlander with a collapsible lens. For superb picture quality consider a 6x6 or 6x9 folder like a Nettar, Isolette or Ikonta. Fuji makes [made?] a 6x4.5 folder. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com > If you don't need lens interchangeability there are quite a > few folders to consider: Retina IIA [make sure it works/get return > privileges], The Retina IIa is my favourite of all the 35mm cameras I've used. It has a superb lens, one of the quietest shutters I've heard, and when folded up the camera is not only close to indestructible but also fits neatly into an average pocket. However, if you wear glasses the viewfinder is a pain to use, so it's better to use an auxiliary viewfinder and reserve the camera's finder for the coupled rangefinder only. The film advance/shutter cocking mechanism is delicate and won't tolerate much abuse, and it's good to get into the habit of advancing the film at the last moment because once the shutter has been cocked switching between the fastest speed and any other speed puts a huge strain on the mechanism. Those caveats aside, it's a wonderful camera that is beautiful both to handle and to look at. SignatureMatthew Winn [If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"] > Hello - > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks for any help or suggestions. I highly recommend the Canonet QL17 GIII. It's lens is legendary, some call it the poor man's Leica. It is small with auto exposure and manual exposure as well. Manual focusing, and oh so very easy to load with film. It is an extremely high quality camera, as you will see when holding it. Here is a link to a better description: http://www.cameraquest.com/canql17.htm They can be bought on ebay. But make sure the camera has had it's light seals changed, as they were made in the early 1970's and back then they used a type of foam to keep the light out. I bought my Canonet from an ebay buyer who specializes in Canonets. He cleans them, puts new lights seals in them, etc. They go for an average of $130. US A very good investment. Good Luck! Helen The Canonet *does* have a good lens, but after 35 years they are notorious for developing sticky leaf shutters. Also, they require mercury batteries and are iffy in the electronics reliability. Although not as small or elegant, the Yashica Electro 35 GSN can use modern batteries and has even better optics. If you are set on a small SLR, I'd recommend a Pentax Super Program, the best of the Pentax small SLR's, excepting the LX, which is quite pricey even in the declining film SLR market. Doug >> Hello - >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Good Luck! > Helen > The Canonet *does* have a good lens, but after 35 years they are notorious > for developing sticky leaf shutters. Also, they require mercury batteries [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Doug That's the first time I've heard about the QL17 GIII having sticky leaf shutters. There were other Canonets made as well, perhaps they are the ones you are talking about? I know there are some Canonets that do not have the same sharp lens as the QL17. Their lenses are inferior to the QL17. But as far as needing a mercury battery, that no longer applies. I can readily buy a battery for a small amount of change on ebay. The PX625 is mercury-free. And they last at least a year. Helen helensilverb...@hotmail.com wrote: > > The Canonet *does* have a good lens, but after 35 years they are notorious > > for developing sticky leaf shutters. Also, they require mercury batteries [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > year. > Helen I think it imperative to buy a Canonet QL17 from someone who sells them on a regular basis, and has replaced the old light seals and cleaned the shutters. In other words, someone who knows what he's doing and has experience with them. I bought mine from an ebay seller that I highly recommend. > Hello - > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks for any help or suggestions. Maybe a used Pentax MX would suit You. Fairly small and all-manual, a lot of used lenses around (and new of course). Also to consider from Pentax are Me-Super and Super A which can be used fully manually and are quite small and should be easy to find used. See http://www.bdimitrov.de/kmp/ Hope this helps. Väinö Louekari > in our pockets and normally don't have problems with the pictures. We > got back from Utah though and have a lot of washed out prints. Hmm, have you tried polarising filters - assuming it was light blue skies that got washed out. Pete > We got back from Utah though and have a lot of washed out prints. > Is there something about the same size that's a manual SLR where we can > bracket, play with the shutter speed and f stops? Something that we > can still fit in a jacket or vest pocket? I'd rather not bring our > SLRs that we have now just because of the weight and bulk. Note also that you CAN affect exposure in a compact camera as well, if it's of an old enough variety :) You can fool the camera to over- or underexpose by changing the ISO setting - IF it has one. The too automatic ones probably don't. > Hello - > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks for any help or suggestions. The smallest SLR you can get, and with a full complement of lenses from wide telephoto to Mirror telephoto, including a large number of zooms and a really good macro, is the Minolta Vectis S1. But it is APS, not 35mm. That means no slides and a very limited palette of films. But the quality is extraordinary, the system is small and light and waterproof. The pictures, up to 11x14, are excellent. If you scan you can get the APS adapter for the Nikon scanners (or the older Minolta Dimage scanner if you have one). And of course you will have to buy ALL of it used and it will take awhile to assemble the system. 35mm users have long dumped on APS but that's because even the best APS was generally point and shoot. I've never seen anyone dump on the Vectis S1 (or the slightly less capable S100- but with the cost so low on ebay there's no reason to get the S100. Both use the same lenses). > > Hello - > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > slightly less capable S100- but with the cost so low on ebay there's no > reason to get the S100. Both use the same lenses). Hello. I agree with the comments above. There is a group on Yahoo for Vectis enthusiasts and if you choose to get a Vectis then it would be worth joining that group. The UK I can buy only 200ASA film. [I did use some of Fuji's APS slide film and the results were far better than I expected .. but that film is no longer available.] Good luck. Regards, Ian. > The smallest SLR you can get, and with a full complement of lenses from > wide telephoto to Mirror telephoto, including a large number of zooms > and a really good macro, is the Minolta Vectis S1. Smaller than a Pentax Auto-110? >> The smallest SLR you can get, and with a full complement of lenses from >> wide telephoto to Mirror telephoto, including a large number of zooms >> and a really good macro, is the Minolta Vectis S1. > > Smaller than a Pentax Auto-110? No. But APS is a reasonable approximation to 35mm. 110 is not, even with the excellent opticsw of the Pentax Auto 110. > Hello - > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks for any help or suggestions. If you can find a good one and don't mind scanning 35mm half frame, an Olympus F or preferable Ft may be a good choice. Small enough to fit in the pocket with the compact standard lens and the remainder of the lens lineup compact as well, there's little that's gets close. If you can put up with print film only, the Nikon Pronea series are seriously underrated imo. Very well built, interchangeable lenses, lightweight and very low cost via Ebay. only problem is aps film... Chris |
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