Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / December 2006
I was just looking at a photo....
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iamcanadian - 02 Dec 2006 00:49 GMT ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted the sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I did some things in the darkroom that were not real; like putting myself standing up in my husband's hand. (Which, at the time, was considered pretty creative!) I look at all photos now and wonder if it actually IS a sunset or a dramatic landscape; or have they just created one? Does it matter? Hmmm....
mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 02 Dec 2006 02:29 GMT > ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted the > sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I did some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sunset or a dramatic landscape; or have they just created one? Does it > matter? Hmmm.... I have no problem with heavily manipulated images, *except* where someone pretends they are real.
It is certainly easier with digital imaging to do 'magic'. But I prefer 'real' or close to real images - simply because I think the process matters. And that is what I think photography is about - capturing a scene that actually existed... (O; So I tend to restrict my manipulations to contrast/colour adjustments, noise removal, removing dust from scans, maybe even removing a piece of litter or two that spoils a landscape, etc. (I've even been known to remove a power line, but I strangely begin to feel guilty (when in fact the power line creator is the one who should feel the guilt, I reckon..))
But I don't go in for pasting silhouetted birds into sunsets to make them more interesting, for example - even though such a thing is very easy.
Aaron - 08 Dec 2006 17:38 GMT And lo, mark.thomas.7@gmail.com <mark.thomas.7@gmail.com> emerged from the ether and spake thus:
>> ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted the >> sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I did some [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > them more interesting, for example - even though such a thing is very > easy. I feel a small measure of guilt invoking the name of the master, but let us not forget the *great lengths* to which Ansel Adams went in the darkroom to achieve most of the images that stand out in our memories.
There is certainly some limit to the amount of manipulation you can perform on an image before it becomes something other than a photograph, but I don't think Ansel felt it necessary to advertise in specific terms the methods and techniques employed during printing to achieve the prints that made him famous.
It has always been understood that the darkroom is a necessary phase in the creation of a traditional photograph, and even when the plebs are unaware of the kinds of manipulation that can be done during that phase, still the results are accepted as photographs.
Without a doubt, Photoshop is a much more capable realm than the darkroom, but I submit that it is a well-known phase of production in digital photography, and that it does nothing to taint the merit of the works produced.
However, in agreement with Mark Thomas 7, it should not be claimed that images created in such a fashion are *pure*. I make no such representations on my website, and while 99% of my images are single exposures with no "super-imposition," I don't feel the necessity to explain myself as an artist or technologist to my viewers. My work speaks for itself, and sometimes it needs a bit of help from Photoshop, or some help from 400mm moon photos from other nights <g>. That certainly makes it no less art, and I don't feel it makes it any less a photograph. That, however, is just my opinion.
Nowadays, it is a much steeper claim that your photographs were *not* in any way altered!
 Signature Aaron http://www.fisheyegallery.com http://www.singleservingphoto.com
Nicholas O. Lindan - 08 Dec 2006 18:38 GMT > I feel a small measure of guilt invoking the name of the master, but > let us not forget the *great lengths* to which Ansel Adams went in the > darkroom to achieve most of the images that stand out in our memories. His book "The Making of 50 Images" [or something to that effect] has the 'before' pictures - straight prints from the negative. Many look like any-old-print back from 1950's drugstore processing.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.nolindan.com/da/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com
Aaron - 13 Dec 2006 18:36 GMT And lo, Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com> emerged from the ether and spake thus:
>> I feel a small measure of guilt invoking the name of the master, but >> let us not forget the *great lengths* to which Ansel Adams went in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > has the 'before' pictures - straight prints from the negative. > Many look like any-old-print back from 1950's drugstore processing. I own "The Making of 40 Photographs" and I don't recall that it has such prints... Perhaps I should look again. What it *does* have, though, are very complete descriptions written by Ansel himself outlining the process he took to make each photograph, including the types of developers, types of papers, reasoning behind them, etc.
The man was truly a master of his craft. He could see the intricacies of the process all the way down the line to the final print while he was standing behind his tripod. At the moment he pressed the shutter, he knew how he would achieve his ends.
I had an opportunity to see "Moonrise over Hernandez, New Mexico," one of my all-time favorite Adams pieces, at Art Institute Chicago while I was there earlier this year. The exhibit was all about enhancement of photographs and so they had, as Nicholas describes, the unprocessed print right next to the processed one.
*Completely breathtaking.*
Not only does the processed print look as amazing in person as you would hope it would, but the processing performed on it is *indisputably* a major source of its brilliance.
 Signature Aaron http://www.fisheyegallery.com http://www.singleservingphoto.com
Al Denelsbeck - 02 Dec 2006 08:28 GMT > ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted the > sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I did some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sunset or a dramatic landscape; or have they just created one? Does it > matter? Hmmm.... I've been on a few forums where, as soon as a photo that was relatively unique was shown, people immediately resorted to crying, "Photoshop!" In many cases, it was completely without merit.
While I'm deeply in favor of people being more skeptical of what's presented to them, it also tends to cheapen the images that took a lot of effort to capture directly. It's a small one of the many reasons I still use film (and have gotten some modicum of satisfaction from displaying the original slide to doubters).
At the same time, I've also done enough digital alterations or composites to know that an image that fools the experienced eye takes no small amount of effort, and can be an accomplishment in its own right. Fooling those less experienced may not take as much ;-)
What's interesting is that, often when someone catches the alteration ("The moon can't be that full and that far off the horizon in those lighting conditions... not to mention it's upside down"), the perpetrator can get *really* defensive. Hey, if you got busted, have the grace to deal with it, laugh, and learn. Don't go off on a tirade about "Art."
- Al.
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William Graham - 02 Dec 2006 19:12 GMT >> ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted the >> sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I did some [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > grace to deal with it, laugh, and learn. Don't go off on a tirade about > "Art." Well, I certainly wouldn't be fooled by the image of her standing in her husband's hand.....Now, it he were standing in her hand....Well, that's a lot more realistic........
iamcanadian - 02 Dec 2006 19:34 GMT Ha ha very funny...:)
> >> ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted the > >> sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I did some [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > husband's hand.....Now, it he were standing in her hand....Well, that's a > lot more realistic........ Hoogy - 02 Dec 2006 20:46 GMT If she was holding him up by his nuts, that I could believe!
>>> ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted the >>> sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I did some [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >husband's hand.....Now, it he were standing in her hand....Well, that's a >lot more realistic........ Bandicoot - 04 Dec 2006 00:24 GMT > > ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted > > the sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > reasons I still use film (and have gotten some modicum of > satisfaction from displaying the original slide to doubters). I've had a few people very confused by an in-camera double exposure I did some time ago (it was my East of the Moon SI picture).
This is indeed a 'manipulation' in one sense, but then they get very puzzled by the fact that there _is_ an original slide. Even more puzzled when I point out that the slide has a power cable on it that is't in the print, so yes, there is some PS involved, but not in the appearance of an over-large moon in a position it couldn't actually occupy.
Funny how fast people forget that manipulations and 'special effects' are a great deal older than PS and digital...
Peter
Al Denelsbeck - 04 Dec 2006 03:51 GMT >> > ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted >> > the sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I've had a few people very confused by an in-camera double exposure I > did some time ago (it was my East of the Moon SI picture). Hard as this may be to believe, that was one of the photos I was thinking of when I wrote my response, because I always liked the idea of multiple exposures but have done too few myself. If I recall, you shot an entire roll of moons with notes about where they fell in the frame, right?
And in case anyone connects that with the other comment I made about the moon in a shot, that one was *not* yours, but posted to alt.binaries.photos.original, with a pasted-in moon. When I called him on it, he got extremely defensive, much like a poster we've seen here.
- Al.
 Signature To reply, insert dash in address to match domain below Online photo gallery at www.wading-in.net
niceparking@gmail.com - 04 Dec 2006 15:14 GMT > >> > ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted > >> > the sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > alt.binaries.photos.original, with a pasted-in moon. When I called him on > it, he got extremely defensive, much like a poster we've seen here. I resent your insinuation--it was art you bastard! ;-)
Bandicoot - 06 Dec 2006 22:21 GMT > >> > ... of a sunset and I thought, " Oh, they probably just inserted > >> > the sunset in their imaging program." Now, while I realize that I [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > entire roll of moons with notes about where they fell in the frame, > right? Yes, that's right. There was a beautifully clear full moon one night and I just felt like shooting it to have a go with some double exposures. I shot most of them at 600mm, and a few with a 2x teleconverter. As you say, I put some top right, some top left, some landscape orientation, some portrait, and kept notes. This was in a Pentax LX, so keeping register when winding back to any particular frame once I had a scene to expose 'on top' of it was easy.
It was fun, though I haven't repeated it. Maybe I should some time.
Funny that we were both thinking of the same shot...
> And in case anyone connects that with the other comment I made > about the moon in a shot, that one was *not* yours, but posted to > alt.binaries.photos.original, with a pasted-in moon. When I called him on > it, he got extremely defensive, much like a poster we've seen here. LOL!
Peter
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