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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / November 2006

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pentax and the best bokeh for the buck

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niceparking@gmail.com - 18 Oct 2006 19:31 GMT
Are you sick of looking at what you think might be a great picture,
until you look at the background and start to see harsh circles of
light, and the more you notice the obvious ones, the more you notice
there's a whole bunch more that are less obvious?  No?  It's just me
then.  At any rate, I'm thinking of picking up a used Pentax system
including 28, 35, 50, 85, 135, 200, 300.  Not necessarily all at once!

What's the most durable, best built pentax available, either auto or
manual focus, which includes mirror lockup and preferably a spot meter?

What lenses have the best bokeh and are considered sharp as well?  I
know there's at least two people here who shoot pentax for the
glass--Bandicoot and TP.  Hope to hear from them on this issue in
particular, but anybody is welcome to chime in, of course.
Chris Loffredo - 18 Oct 2006 19:55 GMT
> At any rate, I'm thinking of picking up a used Pentax system
> including 28, 35, 50, 85, 135, 200, 300.  Not necessarily all at once!

Some of the focal lengths in that list are too close together or
superfluous: IMHO you can drop the 135  and (arguably) the 50mm. I'd
certainly go for a 24mm instead of a 28mm and also go for a 20mm
(Pentax's is quite good).

I've used the Pentax 35mm f/3.5 and found it excellent , the 200mm f/4.0
and found it mediocre.

If you happen to go for a screw mount system, you should also consider
some Zeiss Jena, Meyer, Steinheil, Schacht and Schneider lenses.

> What's the most durable, best built pentax available, either auto or
> manual focus, which includes mirror lockup and preferably a spot meter?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> glass--Bandicoot and TP.  Hope to hear from them on this issue in
> particular, but anybody is welcome to chime in, of course.

You'll probably get lots of tips for the K1000 - Why? I don't know (no
DOF preview among others).
The KM, K2, KX and others are cheaper *and* better.

The LX is a camera I'd certainly get if I went Pentax, but I haven't
actually used it, so others should comment here...
niceparking@gmail.com - 18 Oct 2006 20:39 GMT
> > At any rate, I'm thinking of picking up a used Pentax system
> > including 28, 35, 50, 85, 135, 200, 300.  Not necessarily all at once!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> certainly go for a 24mm instead of a 28mm and also go for a 20mm
> (Pentax's is quite good).

I'll probably only end up with three or four, max.  I like 28 better
than 24.

> I've used the Pentax 35mm f/3.5 and found it excellent , the 200mm f/4.0
> and found it mediocre.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> The LX is a camera I'd certainly get if I went Pentax, but I haven't
> actually used it, so others should comment here...

Thanks, I'll look at the LX then.
Stan de SD - 18 Oct 2006 23:25 GMT
> > At any rate, I'm thinking of picking up a used Pentax system
> > including 28, 35, 50, 85, 135, 200, 300.  Not necessarily all at once!
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> DOF preview among others).
> The KM, K2, KX and others are cheaper *and* better.

I have owned K1000's, K2s, and a MX. I found my K2 to be a bit buggy. I
would definitely stick to the bayonet-mounts as the screw mounts are getting
a bit long in the teeth, but in my experience, the most rugged (in terms of
taking sheer abuse) are as follows:

(1) Older K1000 with stamped metal (not plastic) top plate.
(2) ME Super - a much better than average attempt for the early "automatic"
market (aperture priority and manual), and the price was always right.
(3) MX - body was fine, but the metering was always a bit buggy.

FWIW.
Paul Mitchum - 18 Oct 2006 23:03 GMT
> Are you sick of looking at what you think might be a great picture, until
> you look at the background and start to see harsh circles of light, and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> and TP.  Hope to hear from them on this issue in particular, but anybody
> is welcome to chime in, of course.

You might consider oggling through this web site:
<http://stans-photography.info/> It has a ton of info on most
Pentax-branded lenses, including a few best-of discussions.

As far as bodies, you're limited when it comes to mirror lock-up. Most
have DOF preview, and some have MLU. The standard reference:
<http://www.bdimitrov.de/kmp/>

The Pentax 35mm film bodies most often spoken of in hushed tones are the
aforementioned LX and the MZ-S. The new K10D looks to be another happy
addition to that list, but it's digital, so maybe that's not what you're
after.

The secret to good bokeh is to prevent bad bokeh. Control the contrast
in out-of-focus elements, or decide that you like it. :-)
AAvK - 19 Oct 2006 01:48 GMT
> Are you sick of looking at what you think might be a great picture,
> until you look at the background and start to see harsh circles of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> glass--Bandicoot and TP.  Hope to hear from them on this issue in
> particular, but anybody is welcome to chime in, of course.

I have a K2 and love it very much.  I think it is a bit oddly designed, it has aperture
priority which renders perfect exposures, the rest is manual.  It will not make use
of the "A" setting on lenses that have them, such as the "A" series which was later
made in the 80's, and still made these days.  That takes a program body.

The K2 does have mirror lock-up, is a large and tough body of brass and includes
depth of field preview, as well as exposure compensation (which I never use).

Three "bugs" that shouldn't be there, does not accept a motor unless it is a DMD
model, and no lighting of the match needle meter scale inside the viewfinder at
night, can't see it.  And the design of the ISO(ASA) dial 'around the mount' is odd
and hard to work, takes finger nails while depressing a lever.  The exposure
compensation is another ring around the mount but easy to work.  The camera is
worth having and using.

The KX has mirror lock-up, is essentially the same as the K2 but no aperture
priority. It's flash sync is 1/60 second, K2's is 1/125.  KX is more of an 'artistic
use' camera body, totally manual.  The KM is that same as that, no mirror lock up.  
And the same as the KM is the MX, only smaller, and takes a motor.

The K2/KX meter is silicon photo diode which was advanced for it's time and still
used these days, perfectly accurate so far.  At that time more advanced than Canon's
CDS meters which over-expose in lower light and use mercury batteries, not
currently available.

Good thing about the two cameras is that they use silver 1.5 volt batteries that are
still commonly available, my local radio shack has them at $3.49 each.

Or buy an LX, takes motors and winders, has mirror lock-up, and totally
professional. There were early and later models of LX with differences.  Same
batteries.  http://www.bdimitrov.de/kmp/  And I suggest, buy a film scanner.

... hope this helps,

Signature

}<)))*>  Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Väinö Louekari - 19 Oct 2006 09:52 GMT
> Are you sick of looking at what you think might be a great picture,
> until you look at the background and start to see harsh circles of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> glass--Bandicoot and TP.  Hope to hear from them on this issue in
> particular, but anybody is welcome to chime in, of course.

I have a KX I am very happy with. MLU, depth-of-field-preview but no
spot metering (my another Pentax MZ5N has that). KX has a mechanical
shutter, battery drives just the light meter. KX is very well built and
intuitive to use( at the time (1975) it was built to be a professional
body in the Pentax line-up). A used KX is a LOT cheaper than a used LX.
MX would be another alternative but I find KX a lot better.
As for lenses I would try 28 mm F3,5, (or 35 mm f2,8), 50 mm f1,4 and
135 mm f3,5.

Väinö Louekari
jeremy - 19 Oct 2006 15:41 GMT
> Are you sick of looking at what you think might be a great picture,
> until you look at the background and start to see harsh circles of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> glass--Bandicoot and TP.  Hope to hear from them on this issue in
> particular, but anybody is welcome to chime in, of course.

Your question is stated too broadly to allow a precise response.  It is like
"Which is the best camera?"

Best for WHAT?

If you are looking for the lowest PRICE, then the screwmount SMC Takumars,
mounted on a Spotmatic F (assuming that you want full aperture metering) are
probably the best overall for your purposes.  But Spotmatics had no mirror
lockup or spot metering.  Mamiya made some M42 camera bodies with spot
metering, but they did not have full aperture metering.  No way you're going
to have it both ways.

There were a couple of Pentax models with MLU, but they were in the more
recent K-mount, and they were expensive.

You need to tell us which features you must have, and whether price or
features are most important, before we can give you an appropriate
suggestion.
niceparking@gmail.com - 21 Oct 2006 13:28 GMT
> > Are you sick of looking at what you think might be a great picture,
> > until you look at the background and start to see harsh circles of
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> features are most important, before we can give you an appropriate
> suggestion.

Portrait, landscape, maybe macro.  No screwmount, please, unless it's a
must have lens.
AAvK - 21 Oct 2006 14:48 GMT
> Portrait, landscape, maybe macro.  No screwmount, please, unless it's a
> must have lens.

Well, to interupt, as I am not Jeremy, I suggest onto the *bay or your local shop
and buy a nice condition K2.  It is more of a camera than the KX, but they both
have mirror lock-up and use current silver batteries.
http://www.pentax-manuals.com/

For autofocus I think both MZ-S and PZ1P have mirror lock-up and that's it.

Others, the Minolta SRT 102 (some do some don't), and two others are the old
type of Canon F1 (old pro tank with interchangeable prisms and focusing screens)
and FTb.  But all three of those latter mentioned bodies use mercury batteries
that are no longer made.  K2 is "where it's at" for 35mm manual, I suggest.  And
pretty much, your best lenses for it will be original Pentax, Tamron SP (adaptall-2
mounts for any camera), and Kiron.  Not experienced with Kiron myself, but have
read about that in this news group.

However, if you go with medium format using 120 roll film, you get sharper
clearer images at 11 x 14 inch prints, more worth it for artistic quality.  6x7 cm.
Pentax 67, 67II (tanks), Bronica GS-1 (light tank, does three frame sizes on the
same film), Mamiya 7 II light* rangefinder ($$), RB67 (cheap$), RZ67 (both:
heavy tanks).  At some of those prices you may as well go for a digital SLR.

...hope this helps,

Signature

}<)))*>  Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

niceparking@gmail.com - 22 Oct 2006 20:42 GMT
> > Portrait, landscape, maybe macro.  No screwmount, please, unless it's a
> > must have lens.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> ...hope this helps,

Thanks, but I'm specifically after Pentax for the glass.  I have a
nikon F3 and lot of lenses for it, but have come to hate the oof
effects (oof=out of focus).  I also have an RB67 and a couple lenses.
jeremy - 23 Oct 2006 03:11 GMT
> Thanks, but I'm specifically after Pentax for the glass.  I have a
> nikon F3 and lot of lenses for it, but have come to hate the oof
> effects (oof=out of focus).  I also have an RB67 and a couple lenses.

You might find this link to be of interest:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-02-11-24.shtml

The lens that Mike Johnston lists as his "favorite" is not one of my
favorites, because the Thorium in the optical glass has caused virtually all
of those lenses to dark yellow over the years.  I am much happier with the
55mm f/1.8, which remains water clear and is sharper than the f/1.4.

My only complaint about the f/1.8 is the focal length--55mm rather than
50mm.  It begins to approach short telephoto.

I have been using the 50mm f/1.7 SMP "A" lens and it does appear a tad
sharper than the SMC Takumars, but for bokeh I believe that the SMC Takumar
screwmounts  have a bit of an edge.

But it is only important if you scan your own negs.  The major problem with
having the lab make the prints is that most of them botch up the fine detail
and the color saturation--especially those "one hour" places.

And bokeh can now be simulated in one's editing software.  PSP XI just came
out with a nearly-automatic defocusing effect.  True, it is not as good as
the real thing, but I believe that we will be seeing more and more of these
artificial defocus effects produced by editing software, to the point that
defocus effects will become so common that people will not take as much
notice of it.

It is much the same as soft focus lenses or filters.  With Gaussian Blur,
one can get the exact degree of soft focus desired, and most of us no longer
see the need to use special filters to achieve that effect.

Even though I still shoot film (on Pentax lenses) I have found that
post-shoot digital editing has given me the kind of control over the final
print that I could only dream about back in the wet darkroom days.  A lot of
the signature characteristics of certain lenses can now be approximated in
digital editing.  One's choice of lens is not as critical as it once was.

Ken Rockwell did some comparison shots of the Carl Zeiss 50mm lens versus
several old and new Nikon equivalents, and he concluded that the differences
were not great at all.  The much-touted Zeiss image quality and reputation
for great bokeh certainly were not confirmed in his comparison shots.  I had
never actually seen side-by-side images before, and I came away from it with
a new respect for Nikon lenses.  There have been plenty of photographers
that staked their reputations on Nikon lenses, and I am really starting to
wonder whether all this bokeh stuff is as critical as I once thought it to
be?

If you already have a lot of Nikon gear, the question is whether you will
see an appreciable improvement by dumping it for another brand.  At one time
I would have encouraged anyone to switch, but now I'm not so certain.  We
agonize too much over technical details, and often not enough about
composition.
AAvK - 23 Oct 2006 16:12 GMT
> You might find this link to be of interest:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of those lenses to dark yellow over the years.  I am much happier with the
> 55mm f/1.8, which remains water clear and is sharper than the f/1.4.

I never knew why those old Asahi lenses did that, I had only seen one like that.
I assumed it was a bad recipe of the coatings.  probably great for B/W and color
artistic uses.  And which 50mm 1.4 are you talking about?  I have the "M" f/1.4
and an "A" f/2.0 ...?

> My only complaint about the f/1.8 is the focal length--55mm rather than
> 50mm.  It begins to approach short telephoto.

I had read once that actual focal length of the human eye is something like 43.8mm
or so... aside from angle.  But "angle" is the result of focal length and maybe the
angle of the normal EYE is what the 50mm does.

> I have been using the 50mm f/1.7 SMP "A" lens and it does appear a tad
> sharper than the SMC Takumars, but for bokeh I believe that the SMC Takumar
> screwmounts  have a bit of an edge.
[snip] sorry...

I think "niceparking" is after auto focus, which [they] never did mention to begin with
because [they] mention "OOF" with the use of Nikon manual equipement.  

WHICH would have been very polite to all of us that have done a ton of typing to help
him out... so far for nothing.

Signature

}<)))*>  Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Oct 2006 16:27 GMT
> ... > the Thorium in the optical glass [of the Pentax 50mm 1.4 lens] ... >
> has caused virtually all of those lenses to dark yellow over the years.

Easy to fix:

http://www.hermes.net.au/bayling/repair.html
AAvK - 23 Oct 2006 16:34 GMT
> Easy to fix:
>
> http://www.hermes.net.au/bayling/repair.html

I have seen that page, it is like "funny" but still the waste...
AAvK
jeremy - 23 Oct 2006 17:51 GMT
>> ... > the Thorium in the optical glass [of the Pentax 50mm 1.4 lens] ...
>>  > has caused virtually all of those lenses to dark yellow over the years.
>
> Easy to fix:
>
> http://www.hermes.net.au/bayling/repair.html

Is that page still on the Internet?

I am going to sun-bleach a couple of my 50mm lenses and see what happens.  I
don't like the idea of leaving the lenses uncovered for several weeks,
though.
niceparking@gmail.com - 23 Oct 2006 17:07 GMT
> I think "niceparking" is after auto focus, which [they] never did mention to begin with
> because [they] mention "OOF" with the use of Nikon manual equipement.
>
> WHICH would have been very polite to all of us that have done a ton of typing to help
> him out... so far for nothing.

I did say, to begin with, "either auto or manual focus."  As to your
pronoun problem, please refer to me as "he" if you'd care to.

I do appreciate all of the advice I've received thus far, and I have no
idea why you would say all of the excellent advice given here has been
"so far for nothing."  Even if I don't use it, presumably the great
google groups archive will continue to serve it up for years to come.

More specific to the advice you've given here, I am considering the K2,
though the more I consider it I feel it is a bit older than what I want.
AAvK - 23 Oct 2006 20:16 GMT
> I did say, to begin with, "either auto or manual focus."  As to your
> pronoun problem, please refer to me as "he" if you'd care to.

Now I know... you're a male!

> I do appreciate all of the advice I've received thus far, and I have no
> idea why you would say all of the excellent advice given here has been
> "so far for nothing."  Even if I don't use it, presumably the great
> google groups archive will continue to serve it up for years to come.

It's that "OOF" thing and manual shooting... you know.

> More specific to the advice you've given here, I am considering the K2,
> though the more I consider it I feel it is a bit older than what I want.

Right, well, there's no reason to go from manual Nikon to manual Pentax.  Unless
it's your money and you'll do whatever you want.

Nikon lenses are pretty much very desireable, and two CC's yellower for contrast,
as I've been told by a pro seller one time at Del's.  They are the "ness" of great.
They are practically a cult (or, have been) and I envy you.  I wouldn't dump 'em.

And the OOF problem can only be covered by auto focus or a diopter.  Nikon is
fantastic with providing correction diopters.  Personally, I do have the OOF
problem as I need a diopter in my prescription, or I need auto focus.  Currently,
when I shoot I am pressing my glasses right up against the plastic frame of the
viewfinder, it works, but yuck.

But you couldn't pay ME to go from an F3 to a K2.  Especially over OOF.

So, my apologies,

Signature

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not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Tony Polson - 23 Oct 2006 18:34 GMT
>> The lens that Mike Johnston lists as his "favorite" is not one of my
>> favorites, because the Thorium in the optical glass has caused virtually all
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>artistic uses.  And which 50mm 1.4 are you talking about?  I have the "M" f/1.4
>and an "A" f/2.0 ...?

The yellowing is a result of using a specific heavy element in the
glass to obtain a high refractive index.  It yellows as it ages.  

However it is very easy to remove the yellowing by subjecting the lens
to ultraviolet light.  The easiest was is to leave the lens on a
window sill in order for the ultraviolet component of sunlight to
bleach it.  However, anything more than gentle warmth tends to make
the lubricating grease melt, causing problems with oil on the iris
diaphragm and lens elements.  So it is best to use a well ventilated
window sill or a cold artificial source of UV light.

>> My only complaint about the f/1.8 is the focal length--55mm rather than
>> 50mm.  It begins to approach short telephoto.
>
>I had read once that actual focal length of the human eye is something like 43.8mm
>or so... aside from angle.  But "angle" is the result of focal length and maybe the
>angle of the normal EYE is what the 50mm does.

The human eye cannot be compared directly to a camera lens because it
has a very wide coverage at low resolution and a narrower coverage at
high resolution.  The angle of coverage of the low resolution compares
to that of an 8mm fish eye lens on 35mm film. The angle of coverage of
the high resolution compares to a short to medium telephoto lens.

I recall a report in the long lost "SLR Camera" magazine back in the
1970s about a test where people were asked what focal length gave a
"natural" view comparable with the human eye.  Apparently there was a
consensus around ~70mm but I cannot recall the details.

50mm is the "standard" focal length because 50mm lenses are cheaper to
make than shorter or longer focal lengths and can more easily be made
to perform extremely well at economic cost.  There is no need to look
for any further justification. Many photographers choose 35mm as their
"standard" lens in any case.

43mm is merely the diagonal of a 24x36mm film frame.  It has no
further relevance other than perhaps as an arbitrary starting point
where shorter focal lengths can be called "short focus" or "wide
angle" and longer focal lengths "long focus" or "telephoto".  

However, as with the 50mm focal length, a mystique seems to have
developed that accords the 43mm focal length far more importance than
it ever deserved, with Pentax even making a high quality 43mm "Limited
Edition" lens for the Pentax KAF mount.  Even the "Limited Edition" is
a misnomer because it has been in production for some years.

;-)
AAvK - 23 Oct 2006 20:24 GMT
> The human eye cannot be compared directly to a camera lens because it
> has a very wide coverage at low resolution and a narrower coverage at
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> ;-)

Excellent info, thanks much for the reply.
AAvK
Mike Hamilton - 31 Oct 2006 05:12 GMT
> However, as with the 50mm focal length, a mystique seems to have
> developed that accords the 43mm focal length far more importance than
> it ever deserved, with Pentax even making a high quality 43mm "Limited
> Edition" lens for the Pentax KAF mount.  Even the "Limited Edition" is
> a misnomer because it has been in production for some years.

For the record, it's simply, "Limited".  I don't think they're
referring to a limited quantity or produciton, but the quality of the
lens.

Mike
Tony Polson - 31 Oct 2006 10:57 GMT
>> However, as with the 50mm focal length, a mystique seems to have
>> developed that accords the 43mm focal length far more importance than
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>referring to a limited quantity or produciton, but the quality of the
>lens.

Yes, I certainly agree that the quality of these lenses is "Limited".
Considering Pentax's expressed claims that bokeh was a high priority
in their optical design, I can only conclude that Pentax have failed,
certainly in the case of the three focal lengths I tested (31mm, 43mm
and 77mm - all weird focal lengths too!).
Richard Polhill - 31 Oct 2006 11:14 GMT
> Yes, I certainly agree that the quality of these lenses is "Limited".
> Considering Pentax's expressed claims that bokeh was a high priority
> in their optical design, I can only conclude that Pentax have failed,
> certainly in the case of the three focal lengths I tested (31mm, 43mm
> and 77mm - all weird focal lengths too!).

Do you know of any example pics online?

Rich
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 31 Oct 2006 12:43 GMT
> >> The lens that Mike Johnston lists as his "favorite" is not one of my
> >> favorites, because the Thorium in the optical glass has caused virtually all
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> ;-)

Thanks Tony for a very informative post. I am very impressed!
Regards,
Helen
jeremy - 31 Oct 2006 15:48 GMT
>> >> The lens that Mike Johnston lists as his "favorite" is not one of my
>> >> favorites, because the Thorium in the optical glass has caused
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> Regards,
> Helen

It is not possible to directly compare human vision to a photo, because
humans do not see an entire scene all at one time.  Our eyes rapidly shift
from one point to another, while our brain "stitches" all the individual
views together and gives us the impression that we are viewing everything
all at once.

That having been said, the question is what makes a lens "normal."

A normal lens creates images where the spatial and size relationships
between the various objects in the frame look as they would to the human
eye.

That quality is critical to those of us that take
documentary/historical/architectural photos, where our main objective is to
record the scene for posterity in a way that it will look as closely as
possible to the way it would have been seen had the viewer actually stood
there in person.

I once shot a street scene using a 24mm lens-the only lens I had with me at
that moment.  There were two buildings--a 3 story structure on one corner,
and a 10-story bank building located about a half block further back in the
distance.  The apparent perspective distortion produced by the wide angle
lens resulted in a photo where the 10-story building was not even twice as
tall as the 3-story one.  Anyone looking at that photo could sense
intuitively that something about it just wasn't right, even though they
might not have been able to pinpoint exactly what was wrong.

I typically use a 50mm lens to record such scenes, because that focal length
renders objects that retain their relative sizes when compared with other
objects in the scenes.  My digital camera can zoom to an equivalent of 43mm,
and I normally use that focal length when shooting digital.  I have found it
to be best at keeping relative size differences constant.  The 50mm lens
that I use in 35mm is close enough to maintain the spatial relationships,
and the 55mm lens, while a tad on the tele side, is still acceptable.

Many photographers do not fully grasp the effects of using focal lengths
that fall beyond the normal range.  While such lenses are effective at
producing special views (assuming that the photographer knows what he wants,
and understands which lens to use to achieve his desired effect) the normal
lens holds a special place for those of us whose objective is recording
scenes that are as close to reality, in terms of perspective, as possible.

I have become so dependent on my normal lenses that I often take only a
single normal lens when I take my camera out.  Any "zooming" I need can be
done with my feet.  Strange as it seems, I don't miss the variety of focal
lengths offered by zoom lenses, and my documentary record shots maintain a
consistency among all of them, as the same focal length was used for all the
shots.  That is especially good when shooting multiple angles of the same
building or street scene.  The viewer does not have to mentally adjust to
compensate for varying focal lengths used when the shots were taken, as
would typically have been the case had a zoom lens been used.
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 31 Oct 2006 20:48 GMT
> >> >> The lens that Mike Johnston lists as his "favorite" is not one of my
> >> >> favorites, because the Thorium in the optical glass has caused
[quoted text clipped - 117 lines]
> compensate for varying focal lengths used when the shots were taken, as
> would typically have been the case had a zoom lens been used.

I should have been more clear on what I was replying about:

> However it is very easy to remove the yellowing by subjecting the lens
> to ultraviolet light.  The easiest was is to leave the lens on a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> diaphragm and lens elements.  So it is best to use a well ventilated
> window sill or a cold artificial source of UV light.

I saw a used lens in a camera shop and noticed the yellowing too. I was
wondering what that was.  Makes sense now.
Helen
Tony Polson - 01 Nov 2006 16:51 GMT
>Thanks Tony for a very informative post. I am very impressed!

Thank you, Helen, for the kind words.
niceparking@gmail.com - 23 Oct 2006 16:49 GMT
> > Thanks, but I'm specifically after Pentax for the glass.  I have a
> > nikon F3 and lot of lenses for it, but have come to hate the oof
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-02-11-24.shtml

<SNIPPED much good content>

> If you already have a lot of Nikon gear, the question is whether you will
> see an appreciable improvement by dumping it for another brand.  At one time
> I would have encouraged anyone to switch, but now I'm not so certain.  We
> agonize too much over technical details, and often not enough about
> composition.

I won't be getting rid of the old Nikon gear, as resale price isn't
enough to bother with, frankly, at least not on the old manual lenses
from the 80's and earlier.  Pentax is on the cheap for the most part,
too.  I figure I can trickle $500 into it over several months, eat a
little less sushi for lunch, and come out mostly even with a decent
setup and a new if limited understanding of Pentax, Nikon, and bokeh in
general, and more.  Call it an exploration.
Chris Loffredo - 23 Oct 2006 17:18 GMT
> I won't be getting rid of the old Nikon gear, as resale price isn't
> enough to bother with, frankly, at least not on the old manual lenses
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> setup and a new if limited understanding of Pentax, Nikon, and bokeh in
> general, and more.  Call it an exploration.

Hear! Hear!!

Please post your impressions after a while...
jeremy - 23 Oct 2006 17:50 GMT
> I won't be getting rid of the old Nikon gear, as resale price isn't
> enough to bother with, frankly, at least not on the old manual lenses
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> setup and a new if limited understanding of Pentax, Nikon, and bokeh in
> general, and more.  Call it an exploration.

If you are interested in technical specs for the SMC Takumar screwmount
lenses, the data sheets can all be found at www.yaremko.com.  They represent
all the lenses that Honeywell Pentax was marketing in the US up to 1975,
when Asahi Optical switched over to the K-Mount.

Many of the original K-Mount lenses were the same as the previous generation
of screwmounts, just ported over to the later mount, so a lot of the
information from the M42 lenses remains applicable to the first generation
of K-Mount lenses.

If you can live without spot metering and MLU, my personal favorite Pentax
camera is the P3n (Black) or the P30t (Gray).  They were originally
characterized as the replacements for the K-1000.

* Metered manual operation, plus aperture-preferred and program mode.  (The
original Pentax automatic models, the ES and the ES-II, allowed manual
operation, but their meters turned off, making it necessary to carry a
handheld meter for manual operation.  The P3n/P30t can be used manually and
their meters remain on.

* LED meter interface, not the older needle-type.  Less mechanical
components that can fail or go out of calibration.

* Sized almost identical to the Olympus OM-1, and weight was reduced
substantially over that of the Spotmatic.  Less mechanical components to get
gummed up, too.

* Asahi-Seiko electronic shutter with X synchronization speed of 1/100, up
from 1/60 for the older, cloth shutter speed

* Takes all K, M and A lenses.  The "A" series exploits the
aperture-preferred and program modes.

* Auto-Flash mode with certain Pentax flashes.  Synch speed automatically
sets itself to 1/100 as soon as the flash is turned on, so you don't forget.
Unlike previous Honeywell flash units, the Pentax units used regular AA
cells.  No problem using rechargeable ones.  Honeywell units had to be
serviced when their internal cells died out.  I have three of them, and
can't find anyplace to replace the dead NiCads.  No such problem with the
later Pentax flashes.

* The 50mm "A" f/2 normal lens is still being manufactured today, is dirt
cheap, and is tack sharp!  Sells new for under $75.00!

* Camera dies when batteries are exhausted, but the S76 cells are readily
available and are cheap, unlike the RM400 mercury cells used in the
Spotmatic/Spotmatic II.  They are no longer produced, and users have to use
various alternatives, none of which are quite as good as the original
mercury cells.

* No leather on camera body.  Rubber has been used instead.  Not prone to
drying out or becoming detached.

* DOF preview lever.

* Auto DX-coding.

* Electronic self-timer, great when taking shots on tripod to avoid camera
shake when tripping shutter.

* These models were purchased primarily by amateurs, and they are in
plentiful supply on eBay, and are typically in excellent shape.  I have 4 of
them, and they all arrived in mint condition.  Lots of folks shot only a
roll or two per year, unlike professional camera models, which are often
sold in beat-up condition.

If you can do without auto winders these models allow you to fully exploit
the A lens' capabilities (no autofocus--the A lenses were manual focus).
You get fully manual operation if and when you want it.  You get program
mode and aperture priority when you prefer to spend your attention composing
shots, rather than being sidetracked by exposure issues.  Aperture priority
gives you auto exposure while still allowing you to control depth-of-field
because you set the aperture.  This is just like the ES and ES-II models
from back in the days of M42.

If you are looking for an inexpensive and reliable body, I highly recommend
these.  With Pentax, it is the lens that makes the photo, not so much the
camera.  And these bodies have plenty of life in them, so you don't have to
worry so much about mechanical component failure.  The gears, springs and
other mechanical components have been replaced with electronic ones, and I
believe that the shutters are more accurate than the older cloth ones were.

Be careful not to get the older "P3," because that model did not have
aperture preferred auto operation, just program mode.

I am reluctant to recommend screwmount bodies if they are to be used as
shooters, because they're over 3 decades old and you run the risk of getting
something that may not have a lot of life in it, or one that needs CLAs to
free up thickened lubricants.  You indicated you were on a budget, and the
maintenance costs on older mechanical cameras make them less desirable for
you.

I am a big fan of normal lenses, and Pentax normal "A" lenses are plentiful
and cheap.  You can buy one of the models I listed above, along with a f/1.4
or f/1.7 lens, for under $100.00.  How much better than that can one get?
AND, much of the gear is in near-mint condition, so you can expect to get a
lot of use out of it, rather than just to acquire it for collectable value.

You can always add other bodies later, but I have chosen to stay with the
P3n/P30t, as they give me what I require.
Bandicoot - 24 Oct 2006 01:01 GMT
[SNIP]

> I won't be getting rid of the old Nikon gear, as resale price isn't
> enough to bother with, frankly, at least not on the old manual lenses
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> setup and a new if limited understanding of Pentax, Nikon, and
> bokeh in general, and more.  Call it an exploration.

What a good attitude - a shame more people don't think like that.  Try
something, learn from it, then decide what you like, rather than just follow
the herd or buy from whoever has the biggest advertising budget that month.

Here's to more exploration!

Peter
Bandicoot - 20 Oct 2006 02:36 GMT
> Are you sick of looking at what you think might be a great picture,
> until you look at the background and start to see harsh circles of
> light, and the more you notice the obvious ones, the more you notice
> there's a whole bunch more that are less obvious?  No?  It's just me
> then.  At any rate, I'm thinking of picking up a used Pentax system
> including 28, 35, 50, 85, 135, 200, 300.  Not necessarily all at once!

Hmmm, best bokeh and sharp for these FLs.  Well, I haven't used all of the
options/versions for all of these FLs, but from what I have used, here's my
take:

Perhaps before I go on I should make sure you know what the K, A, etc.
appellations mean.  These are all K-mount bayonet lenses that I'm
describing, in chronological order.  You could, alternatively, use the older
screw-mount lenses and still get much of the benefit of the optics, but
these days I think the price differential used is so small that I'd probably
only consider the bayonet lenses and bodies (of course, if you get a really
good price on a screw-mount lens, you can still use it on a K-mount body
with an adapter, though you'll have to use stop-down metering.)

K - earliest version, metal, manual focus

M - optimised for compactness.  Some use the same optical formula as their K
predecessors, some don't.  Not all the lenses that exist in K (or A)
versions were also made as M versions.  Metal bodied.  Manual focus.

A - first lenses that support shutter priority and programme operation (it's
manual or aperture priority only with earlier lenses).  Some of these are K
or M designs with the 'A' feature added, others are new designs.  Several K
and M designs were 'tweaked' a little for the A versions.  Metal bodied.
Manual focus.

F - first lenses with AF.  A few changes from the A optical designs, but
mostly the same designs.  Some plastic, some metal.

FA - later AF lenses, the main changes are that more information is
exchanged between the body and the lens, on bodies that support it (KAF2
mount bodies).  Some changes from F optical designs in some lenses.  Some
plastic, some metal.

FAJ - designed for bodies that can set the aperture, no aperture ring on the
lens itself.  An abomination.  Plastic.

Then there are some lenses for the reduced sensor size digital bodies, and
some digitally optimised lenses that cover the full frame size.

Also, there are the Limited lenses: these have AF and can be compared to
luxury versions of the FA type: no holds barred optical designs and very
nice mechanicals.

And finally the * lenses - eg. A*, FA*, etc.  Originally this was those that
used ED glass types, and essentially now it is an indication of a somewhat
higher quality level, though * lenses don't exist for all FLs, since this
design isn't always necessary.  They have nice metal barrels (usually) and
for the AF ones there's a very nice AF/MF clutch mechanism that means that
the focus feel in manual is much better than is usual for an AF lens.

All these lenses have Pentax's SMC coating, but the coating has 'evolved'
over time, and in particular the A and later lenses seem slightly more flare
resistant than the earlier lenses - though the Ks are still more flare
resistant than a brand new Canon lens, so who's complaining?  >;-)  The
Limiteds have Pentax's "Ghostless" coating, which is a sort of
super-super-multicoating (this and their very good coma is one of the
reasons I find them particularly good for night shooting).

OK, so to specifics:

28mm - the f3.5K is, I think, the sharpest, and has nice bokeh.  The f2.8s
may be just behind the 3.5s for sharpness, but are at least their equal for
bokeh - and from f4 or 5.6 are indistinguishable on sharpness anyway.  Of
the f2.8s, I think the A is the best version I've used, but the FA is said
to be its equal or perhaps slightly better.

The 30mm f2.8K is probably sharper and with (even) better bokeh than any of
these 28s, but hard to find (no, mine isn't for sale!)  The 31mm f1.8 FA AL
Limited is sharper still, with nice bokeh and excellent coma, though for
bokeh per se, the 30mm is at least as good and probably my preference - I
need to do more testing really to tell apart these two lenses both of which
I like a lot.

35mm - the f2 supposedly has the best bokeh.  I have an f2M and it is nice,
but I wouldn't say it's necessarily any better than the f3.5K I have, which
I think is the sharpest.  The f2A may be better, but I've never used one.

50mm - well, of course here you are spoilt for choice.  None of the Pentax
50s is anything less than excellent, and even the ludicrously cheap f2 will
blow the doors off the much touted f1.8s of some other makers we won't
mention.  However, everyone seems to agree that the best is the f1.4A, and I
must agree that mine is indeed a very special lens.  The f1.2A possibly has
even better bokeh, and wide open a rather special look, but it is not as
sharp as the f1.4 until about f5.6, at which point I can't tell them apart
(though some people claim that they can).  The f1.7M is very nearly the
equal of the 1.4A, and will cost you a lot less.  The f2.8 A and FA macros
are also incredibly sharp - maybe the sharpest 50s you'll ever find - and
their bokeh is not all that different to the other 50s.

85mm - the f1.4s are said to have the best bokeh, with the A* being the best
for distance work (landscapes) and the FA* more optimised for portraits.  I
don't have either of those however.  The f2 has a bad reputation in some
parts, though I know people who have it and like it - maybe it's good, just
not as good as the other 85s.  The one I have is the f1.8K, and it is an
excellent lens, very compact and with attractive bokeh, good for people and
for landscape.  The f2.8F Soft-Focus is also really nice, and if you enjoy
portraits may be worth a look.  Don't overlook the 77mm f1.8 FA Limited
either, which may be the sharpest of all of these.

You've skipped the 105mm f2.8K which is a real cracker, and the 120mm f2.8M
which I think is a very undervalued lens these days.  Also the 100mm
macros - all are good but the absolute star is the 100mm f2.8 FA Macro: you
won't find a sharper lens, and its bokeh is very good indeed: better than
other macros I've known (some have awful bokeh) and certainly as good as the
much touted 90mm Tamron.

135mm - the 'star' has to be the f1.8A* ED, which is one of my favourites
and a great people lens.  But it is very heavy and has become expensive.
Nearly as good, very nearly as sharp and with similar bokeh, but lighter and
cheaper is the f2.5K (not the much cheaper Takumar which is a different
design, cheaper, and not SMC coated).  The f2.8 FA IF is very nearly as nice
as the f2.5K if you want AF (though it is a very ugly lens to look at, looks
like the army designed it.)  The f3.5 in all its versions is very cheap to
buy, very small and compact, and a good lens by anyone's standards, just not
quite up there with its f1.8 and f2.5 cousins.  The 150mm f3.5K is good
too - I like it more than the f3.5 135mm, and it is actually lighter than
the 135mm f2.5K.

200mm - the f4 macros have good reputations but I've never used one.  The
other f4s tend not be well thought of: they are not really bad lenses, but
they don't quite reach the standard compared to other Pentax mid-long
primes.  The 200mm that I prefer is the f2.8 FA* ED IF - this is remarkably
sharp and contrasty for a 200, and the bokeh is good.  Once you get beyond
about 135mm, bokeh often tends to become harsher with anyone's lenses, and
this 200 has bokeh _at least_ as good as anything else I've seen of this
length.

300mm - the f4K/M/A is a good lens, but I prefer a little more contrast.
This you get, along with sharpness and, for a 300, good bokeh, with the f4A*
and f4M*.  This (mine is the A* version) is my preferred 300 for
hand-holding and/or if bokeh is a key concern.  The f4.5F* ED IF is probably
a tiny bit sharper and is the lens I prefer for tripod use (or if I want AF,
of course) but I think the A* has slightly nicer bokeh.  The FA* is the same
optical design as the F*, but lacks the F*'s tripod mount, for some reason.

Phew - hope that's some use.  I didn't mention zooms since none really has
bokeh quite as nice as a fixed FL, and I'm writing enough as it is!

> What's the most durable, best built pentax available, either auto or
> manual focus, which includes mirror lockup and preferably a spot meter?

Most durable and best built body: I'd say the LX, or if you want AF, the
MZ-S.  I accidentally knocked the MZ-S against the corner of my house once,
knocked a bit of brick off the house, didn't even scratch the camera.

No spot-meter on the LX, but the best meter there is for long exposure work,
and the interchangeable finders are good.  Only the meter and shutter speeds
below 1/90 need the battery, so it's also good if power is a concern.  I
have five (including my trademark pink snakeskin one) and a spares body, and
think they are magnificent.

The MX is lovely if you want something compact and light though still
solidly built, but it doesn't have MLU so may not suit you.  There is a
fudge for mirror pre-release if you want to try it.  Does have a much
quieter shutter than the LX (silk versus titanium must make a difference,
the LX has a real 'twang' to it).

The MZ-S is a joy to handle, compared to most AF cameras I've ever used, but
is definitely nicer with the battery grip than without.  No gimmicks that
you don't need, everything that you do need is easy to access - only gripes
are minor: it can be a little too easy to switch metering modes by accident,
and that changing the functions/set-up - like whether you want to set the
delayed release to work as a self-timer of a mirror pre-fire, for example -
is not always intuitive, but then you seldom need to change these things.

> What lenses have the best bokeh and are considered sharp as well?  I
> know there's at least two people here who shoot pentax for the
> glass--Bandicoot and TP.  Hope to hear from them on this issue in
> particular, but anybody is welcome to chime in, of course.

Hope all that helps - feel free to post asking any more specific questions
and I'll reply if I know the answers.  Be interesting to hear how what
choices you make, and how you feel about them once you've used them for a
while.

Peter
AAvK - 20 Oct 2006 06:01 GMT
Peter that was an awesome answer, I know I'm someone else but thanks!
Saved your text in a notepad in my "photography" folder.  

Let me ask if it's OK, I was given a SMC M 100mm 2.8 by an uncle, no
scratches on the glass and no "acid eat" in the coatings, all clean with it's
own case and caps.  Have you used the same, and what is your breakdown
on it's qualities?

Signature

}<)))*>  Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Bandicoot - 20 Oct 2006 16:32 GMT
> Peter that was an awesome answer, I know I'm someone else but thanks!
> Saved your text in a notepad in my "photography" folder.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> own case and caps.  Have you used the same, and what is your
> breakdown on it's qualities?

Thanks.

I have one of these (100mm f2.8M) and it is a good lens.  I only didn't
mention it because the 105mm K is a little bit sharper, and the f2.8 100mm
that I use mostly is the macro (the A or the FA).  That said, the 100 M is
definitely a lens worth using: it's plenty sharp enough and has a nice
bokeh, though not  _quite_  as nice as the 85s that I mentioned.

Best of all, it is  _tiny_  and very light.  You could use this for
people/street photography and a lot of the time everyone would assume you
only had a standard lens fitted.  Although I use the 85mm more often, I kept
my 100 M because it's a nice travelling-light lens - it makes a very nicely
balanced package with an MX.  Mine has a nice colour balance too, maybe just
a touch warmer than some of my other glass.

Peter
AAvK - 22 Oct 2006 04:06 GMT
> Thanks.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Peter

Thanks Peter, you have quite an intimacy with the qualities of your lenses!  Just
like Richard Knoppow in the LF group.

Signature

}<)))*>  Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Bandicoot - 22 Oct 2006 15:04 GMT
> > Thanks.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks Peter, you have quite an intimacy with the qualities of your lenses!  Just
> like Richard Knoppow in the LF group.

If I was half as knowledgeable as Richard I'd be very happy - but thanks for
the compliment!

Peter
Tony Polson - 23 Oct 2006 20:15 GMT
>Hmmm, best bokeh and sharp for these FLs.  Well, I haven't used all of the
>options/versions for all of these FLs, but from what I have used, here's my
>take:

<snip>

I cannot hope to improve on anything Peter has said here, given his
longer experience with the brand, but I will add a few comments where
I can ...

>OK, so to specifics:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>the f2.8s, I think the A is the best version I've used, but the FA is said
>to be its equal or perhaps slightly better.

Also consider a 24mm lens.  The 24mm f/3.5 K (also SMC Takumar) is a
gem and the recent 24mm f/2 FA is a very fine lens indeed, with very
low distortion and smooth bokeh - yes, the f/2 maximum aperture makes
defocused backgrounds a distinct possibility!

>The 30mm f2.8K is probably sharper and with (even) better bokeh than any of
>these 28s, but hard to find (no, mine isn't for sale!)  The 31mm f1.8 FA AL
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>but I wouldn't say it's necessarily any better than the f3.5K I have, which
>I think is the sharpest.  The f2A may be better, but I've never used one.

The later 35mm f/2 FA is probably the best of all, but the f/2 K and A
versions are not far behind.  

>50mm - well, of course here you are spoilt for choice.  None of the Pentax
>50s is anything less than excellent, and even the ludicrously cheap f2 will
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>are also incredibly sharp - maybe the sharpest 50s you'll ever find - and
>their bokeh is not all that different to the other 50s.

Agreed on the 50mm f/1.4 A.  Sublime bokeh - better than any Leica
50mm though not nearly as sharp wide open as later Leica offerings.

>85mm - the f1.4s are said to have the best bokeh, with the A* being the best
>for distance work (landscapes) and the FA* more optimised for portraits.  I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>portraits may be worth a look.  Don't overlook the 77mm f1.8 FA Limited
>either, which may be the sharpest of all of these.

The 85mm f/1.8 SMC Takumar has a well-deserved reputation for fine
sharpness and smooth bokeh and is one of the best Pentax portrait
lenses ever made.  Does the K version have the same formula?  It seems
to sell for much less.

>You've skipped the 105mm f2.8K which is a real cracker, and the 120mm f2.8M
>which I think is a very undervalued lens these days.  Also the 100mm
>macros - all are good but the absolute star is the 100mm f2.8 FA Macro: you
>won't find a sharper lens, and its bokeh is very good indeed: better than
>other macros I've known (some have awful bokeh) and certainly as good as the
>much touted 90mm Tamron.

The 105mm f/2.8 Super-Takumar is a favourite of mine.  I don't know if
it ever made it to SMC Takumar or whether the K version is the same
formula.

>135mm - the 'star' has to be the f1.8A* ED, which is one of my favourites
>and a great people lens.  But it is very heavy and has become expensive.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>this 200 has bokeh _at least_ as good as anything else I've seen of this
>length.

The 200mm f/4 M is probably the best of the non-macro 200mm lenses.

>300mm - the f4K/M/A is a good lens, but I prefer a little more contrast.
>This you get, along with sharpness and, for a 300, good bokeh, with the f4A*
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Phew - hope that's some use.  I didn't mention zooms since none really has
>bokeh quite as nice as a fixed FL, and I'm writing enough as it is!

Pentax zooms are generally not nearly as good as Pentax fixed focal
length lenses but some exceptions deserve mention:

The 28-70mm f/4 FA is a gem of a lens with excellent sharpness and
good bokeh.  Unfortunately it suffers from a balsam fault which causes
a compound element to separate, after which the lens is junk.  But a
good one can be found very cheaply and will work very well until it
separates.

The 35-105mm f/3.5 A is an outstanding performer.  It is a varifocal
rather than a true zoom but makes up for it with superb sharpness and
bokeh of a sublime quality that is rarely found in zoom lenses.  This
is without doubt the best zoom lens I have ever used.  It usually
sells for high prices

The 45-125mm f/4 seems to have its fans but I am not sure why.  It is
heavy and suffers from strong distortion - pincushion at the wide and
barrel at the long end.  The bokeh is mediocre and the sharpness is
nothing special.  Despite that it sells at high prices.  The 35-105mm
f/3.5 is a much better buy.

I used the 70-210mm f/4 A with generally good results.  It is a
competent rather than outstanding lens.  The 80-200mm f/2.8 is
reputedly very good but I have not used it.  

>> What's the most durable, best built pentax available, either auto or
>> manual focus, which includes mirror lockup and preferably a spot meter?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>have five (including my trademark pink snakeskin one) and a spares body, and
>think they are magnificent.

As always, a word of warning with the LX.  Its mirror damping system
is very complex and it contains many rubber components that
deteriorate.  All LX models from the 1980s will either already have
the dreaded "Sticky Mirror Syndrome" or will soon succumb to it.  The
repair is not difficult but it is expensive.  Buy a camera that has
already had the repair done by an experienced Pentax-trained
technician, or budget for the repair.  

>The MX is lovely if you want something compact and light though still
>solidly built, but it doesn't have MLU so may not suit you.  There is a
>fudge for mirror pre-release if you want to try it.  Does have a much
>quieter shutter than the LX (silk versus titanium must make a difference,
>the LX has a real 'twang' to it).

The MX suffers from a high failure rate of the flash trigger circuit.
Anyone buying one should ensure that it fires a flash gun.  Of course
it can fail at any time and spare parts are no longer available.  All
LX parts are available until at least 2011 and that may be a better
buy, although the MX has a strong following and I really like mine.

>The MZ-S is a joy to handle, compared to most AF cameras I've ever used, but
>is definitely nicer with the battery grip than without.  No gimmicks that
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>choices you make, and how you feel about them once you've used them for a
>while.

Seconded!  Let us know how it goes.  

Like you, I changed from Nikon to Pentax, mainly for the superior
optical characteristics of Pentax glass.
Väinö Louekari - 23 Oct 2006 22:27 GMT
My old Pentax f1,4 50mm M series still seems to me a good lens
(chuckle). But I find this all very interesting and would like to ask if
anyone has any user experience about the old M-series 40mm f2,8 or the
new Limited 43mm f1,9?

Väinö Louekari
Tony Polson - 23 Oct 2006 23:09 GMT
>My old Pentax f1,4 50mm M series still seems to me a good lens
>(chuckle). But I find this all very interesting and would like to ask if
>anyone has any user experience about the old M-series 40mm f2,8 or the
>new Limited 43mm f1,9?

I used to own the 40mm f/2.8 M.  It was reasonably sharp in the centre
when stopped down to f/5.6 or f/8.  Wide open, it was soft across the
frame and the light fall-off was severe.  The edges were soft at all
apertures.  Not a great lens, perhaps not even a good one, though the
bokeh was smooth.

The 43mm f/1.9 FA Limited is a very sharp lens, albeit with a little
softness at the corners when wide open.  Personally, I think the bokeh
is harsh for a Pentax lens but others' opinions will differ.  After
testing the lens I decided not to buy one.
Väinö Louekari - 23 Oct 2006 23:34 GMT
>>My old Pentax f1,4 50mm M series still seems to me a good lens
>>(chuckle). But I find this all very interesting and would like to ask if
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> is harsh for a Pentax lens but others' opinions will differ.  After
> testing the lens I decided not to buy one.

Thank You.
Still bothering You, considering that I have a M 35mm f2,8, M 50mm f1,4
and a F 50mm f1,7 what would You consider worthwhile in the 35 - 50 (or
say 85, I have a good 105) fixed focal length region?
This is a friendly question.

Väinö Louekari
Tony Polson - 24 Oct 2006 11:10 GMT
>>>My old Pentax f1,4 50mm M series still seems to me a good lens
>>>(chuckle). But I find this all very interesting and would like to ask if
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>say 85, I have a good 105) fixed focal length region?
>This is a friendly question.

The 35mm f/2 (any version), the 50mm f/1.4 (A or any later version)
and the 85mm f/1.4 (any version) are all extremely good lenses with
excellent sharpness and outstandingly smooth bokeh.

It is worth reading Peter's (Bandicoot's) long and detailed reply to
the original poster to learn more about the available choices.  Peter
has a lot more experience of Pentax lenses than I have, and his
knowledge is vast.  I currently use a mix of Leica and Carl Zeiss
(Contax) lenses on a Canon EOS 5D.  I still have some Pentax gear
(MZ-3, MX and *ist D bodies and seven lenses) but it only ever gets
used when the Canon body fails, which is a very rare event.
Bandicoot - 24 Oct 2006 02:07 GMT
> My old Pentax f1,4 50mm M series still seems to me a good
> lens (chuckle). But I find this all very interesting and would like
> to ask if anyone has any user experience about the old M-series
> 40mm f2,8 or the new Limited 43mm f1,9?

I've used both of these, as has Tony.  Unlike Tony, I kept both of them
(though the 40mm I got rather cheaply, and might not have kept if it cost
what the 43mm does...)

The 40mm f2.8 M's principal claim to fame is, of course, its tiny size.
Some love this, others find it makes operating the focus and aperture rings
awkward, so try before you buy.  I wouldn't want to have to use one wearing
gloves.  The size makes it a very unobtrusive lens when used ona a small
body, and I think it pairs very nicely with an MX in particular.

The 40mm is not fabulously sharp - especially not compared to a Pentax 50 -
but it is pretty good in the centre and good when stopped down.  Bokeh is
good.  I like mine more as a B&W lens, and mostly for the sorts of people
shots where interest is towards the centre of the frame.  There is some
fall-off wide open which also contributes to favouring this type of use.

This is sort of what one might expect from a Tessar, though it clearly isn't
a Tessar design (has an extra element on the front).  The new 40mm f2.8 DA
AL Limited has a very similar optical design, apart from the aspherical
element(s).  (The 50mm f4 macros - not the f2.8s - are the only Pentax
standard lenses that really look remotely like a Tessar design to me.)

The 40mm is also good if, say, I am expecting to use some other (usually
longer) FL, as the 40mm can slip into a pocket and just be there if I find I
need it.  And I like the 40mm angle of view.

This lens is often described by sellers as rare.  In fact, it isn't all that
uncommon, so don't over-pay for one.

The 43mm f1.9 FA Limited is a very different animal.  It is very sharp
indeed, with lots of micro contrast, good coma correction, extraordinarily
good flare control, and 'luxury' build quality.  It doesn't, however, have
quite as smooth and 'creamy' bokeh as one expects from a Pentax, and all
that contrast may not always flatter.  I wouldn't quite call it a Nikon in
Pentax's clothing - but in visual 'style' it is maybe halfway between the
'typical' Pentax and the 'typical' Nikon approach to which of the various
compromises that are inevitable in lens design should be taken.

The 43 is a seven element in six group design, looking very close to the
f1.2 and f1.4 50s in design, from which it must be descended, but clearly it
has been 'tweaked' to a slightly different set of design priorities.

This issue of bokeh has led some who love the Pentax 50s to reject the 43mm.
If I could only have one 'normal' lens it would be one of the 50s rather
than this one.  However, if I can have both, I value the fact that it is an
alternative choice.  In these days of computer aided lens design it is not
that usual (in 35mm) to have a choice of such different visual styles within
a single brand, and I value it.

Specifically: if bokeh mattes to the shot, and especially if there are out
of focus highlight areas, I'll use one of the 50s (or the 40mm) rahter than
the 43.  For people I'll prefer something other than the 43.  For night
scenes the 43s lack of flare and low coma make it the preference - ie.
defocused highlights go for the 50, sharp highlights go for the 43.  I also
like the 43 in landscapes when it is stopped down for front to back
sharpness: while at small apertures there is probably little if any
differnece in sharpness between it and the 50s, I feel the way the 43
handles contrast works well in this situation.

But as with (almost) all my opinions on lenses, this is all based on my
experience in shooting actual pictures, not carrying out tests.  So it
applies to my style and way of working, and may not be the same for someone
else.

Peter
jeremy - 24 Oct 2006 03:26 GMT
"Bandicoot" <"insert_handle_here"@techemail.com> wrote in message

> The 40mm is not fabulously sharp - especially not compared to a Pentax
> 50 -
> but it is pretty good in the centre and good when stopped down.

The 50mm f/2.0 is not all that much bigger, and it is easier to focus
because the focusing ring is somewhat larger than on the 40mm.

I was one of those people that felt uncomfortable using the 40mm because of
its small size--plus it just looked strange mounted on the camera.  I can't
understand the fascination with it.

Just gimme' a plain ole' normal lens and I'm a happy camper . . . In fact,
the humble f/2 or f/1.7 will do just fine--no need for the f/1.4 or (Holy
Moley!) the f/1.2.  That's overkill.
AAvK - 24 Oct 2006 07:08 GMT
> Just gimme' a plain ole' normal lens and I'm a happy camper . . . In fact,
> the humble f/2 or f/1.7 will do just fine--no need for the f/1.4 or (Holy
> Moley!) the f/1.2.  That's overkill.

I took a look at lens_specific images for that Asahi 50 F/2 "A" (pbase.com)... since
it's a cheap lens, no one using it hardly cared to do any really fine focusing_to_
genuine_sharpness with it.  I also could see very clearly that the color rendition is
less because the thing simply has less glass in it.  My 50f/1.4 "M" gave better/deeper
color rendition in images I shot, though I have not used the f/2 yet.  And as it is so
touted to be so sharp (which is why I bought it), I really think the f/1.4 M is quite
awesomely sharp enough, with better color results.  But not "quite" as good as a
Canon 50 f/1.4 SSC breechlock.

Let me ask, which is your absolute favorite Spotmatic body?  Which was the best
they ever made, in your opinion?  I ask because of your experience.

Signature

}<)))*>  Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

niceparking@gmail.com - 26 Oct 2006 15:28 GMT
> > Are you sick of looking at what you think might be a great picture,
> > until you look at the background and start to see harsh circles of
[quoted text clipped - 172 lines]
> choices you make, and how you feel about them once you've used them for a
> while.

Thank you for the excellent and most informative post.
niceparking@gmail.com - 26 Oct 2006 19:29 GMT
Not much of a selection on Ebay right now...KEH has some, but not the
ones you name.  Any place else I should look?
Bandicoot - 27 Oct 2006 01:23 GMT
> Not much of a selection on Ebay right now...KEH has some, but not the
> ones you name.  Any place else I should look?

Well, I'm in the UK, so the places I'd look might be expensive for you once
you allow for postage.  eBay does turn things up with some regularity, so
it's worth just keeping looking.  Over here the online dealer I like best is
Ffordes - https://secure.ffordes.com/index.htm

Peter
Bandicoot - 27 Oct 2006 01:39 GMT
[SNIP]

> Over here the online dealer I like best is Ffordes -
>  https://secure.ffordes.com/index.htm

Further to which, of the lenses discussed, I see they currently have:

<
https://secure.ffordes.com/shop/Store/Itemdet.asp?Type=secd&sub=1&Code=PT&SubCod
e=ML&id=74253&promo=0
>

and;

<
https://secure.ffordes.com/shop/Store/Itemdet.asp?Type=secd&sub=1&Code=PT&SubCod
e=ML&id=65019&promo=0
>

If that helps at all in giving you an idea of the sort of prices they
charge.

Peter
Tony Polson - 27 Oct 2006 10:21 GMT
>Not much of a selection on Ebay right now...KEH has some, but not the
>ones you name.  Any place else I should look?

Peter (Bandicoot) has recommended some of the very best Pentax lenses.
They are of course well known among Pentax users, so it is not
surprising that people hold on to them.  If you are patient, they will
eventually show on eBay.

When I decided which Pentax lenses I wanted, I set up an eBay search
and ran it daily until they appeared.  I have since done the same with
Leica, and I managed to build my Leica outfit at what I consider to
have been excellent prices.

;-)
 
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