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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / July 2006

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M42 SM bodies

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AAvK - 23 Jul 2006 09:55 GMT
Curious to the experts in this group, was there ever an M42 camera body that
has mirror lock up?

Reason I ask:
I love to do artist shots when I can, then scan the film into Photoshop for further
post work, and MLU would help because there is a plethora of great lenses for
low prices out there.  Any advice?

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}<)))*>  Giant_Alex
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jeremy - 23 Jul 2006 10:53 GMT
> Curious to the experts in this group, was there ever an M42 camera body
> that has mirror lock up?

Pentax offered it as an option on their Spotmatic line, through its
Honeywell service centers in the US.  They installed what looked like an
identical meter switch, on the opposite side of the camera.

There is an undocumented mirror lockup feature common to all Spotmatics, SP
500 and SP 1000: you set up the shot and then VERY QUICKLY press and release
the shutter button.  The mirror will lock up.  Another press of the shutter
button will fire the shutter and bring the mirror down.  One has to get the
technique down just right, and to expect that it won't work on every single
try.

I do know that Pentax never offered true MLU as factory options on any of
their M42 cameras.  You might want to have a look at Fuji.  I don't know
that they offered it, but that would be the most likely source.  Perhaps
someone more knowledgeable on Fuji cameras can tell us.
AAvK - 24 Jul 2006 04:10 GMT
> Pentax offered it as an option on their Spotmatic line, through its
> Honeywell service centers in the US.  They installed what looked like an
> identical meter switch, on the opposite side of the camera.

I wonder if Pentax in Colo. would do it (or still be doing it), it would take
a 'phone call to find out and how much it costs.

> There is an undocumented mirror lockup feature common to all Spotmatics, SP
> 500 and SP 1000: you set up the shot and then VERY QUICKLY press and release
> the shutter button.  The mirror will lock up.  Another press of the shutter
> button will fire the shutter and bring the mirror down.  One has to get the
> technique down just right, and to expect that it won't work on every single
> try.

YEAH I think I'd want to be assuredly more stable than that... for the want of
not wasting film.  Spotmatics are of "iconic" build, however.

> I do know that Pentax never offered true MLU as factory options on any of
> their M42 cameras.  You might want to have a look at Fuji.  I don't know
> that they offered it, but that would be the most likely source.  Perhaps
> someone more knowledgeable on Fuji cameras can tell us.

Thanks much for all the info, I will take a gander.

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jeremy - 24 Jul 2006 17:13 GMT
>> Pentax offered it as an option on their Spotmatic line, through its
>> Honeywell service centers in the US.  They installed what looked like an
>> identical meter switch, on the opposite side of the camera.
>
> I wonder if Pentax in Colo. would do it (or still be doing it), it would
> take a 'phone call to find out and how much it costs.

Pentax hasn't worked on any of their legacy screwmount gear in a couple of
decades, citing parts unavailability.  They won't even look at a screwmount
camera or lens, much repair it.  It is doubtful that any of their current
technicians even have any training or experience in working on any of that
old stuff.  The MLU modification was a specialty modification from Honeywell
service centers.  I highly doubt that an independent repair shop would have
the parts or the knowledge to do the modification themselves.  Remember that
this modification has been unavailable for over thirty years.

If you want MLU you can get it with a couple of the K-mount Pentax cameras
and lenses, and you will probably be able to spend less for a camera and
normal lens that is already so equipped, rather than paying for a
modification.

You mentioned that you wanted a camera that could exploit the full-aperture
metering lugs on the SMC Takumar lenses.  Only Pentax cameras supported full
aperture metering, specifically the Spotmatic-F, The ES and the ES-II, none
of which could support MLU without a special modification (except for the
undocumented workaround that I described in a previous post).

Pentax (Asahi Optical, actually) did not license their full-aperture lens
system to any other manufacturer.  You can mount those SMC Takumars on other
brands of cameras, but they are usable in stop-down mode only.  Pentax may
have utilized what was often called a "Universal Mount," but they took pains
to differentiate themselves from other manufacturers, and they were not
about to lose revenue from consumers that wanted to mount their lenses on
other brands of cameras to take advantage of their special features.  So you
should not plan on mating an SMC Takumar with another brand of camera body
and having both MLU and full-aperture metering.

If you are not heavily invested in SMC Takumars, you might want to consider
Nikon bodies and lenses.  Nikon had a number of models with MLU and wide
open metering.

Is MLU that much of a factor that you cannot just live without it?
AAvK - 26 Jul 2006 12:21 GMT
> Pentax hasn't worked on any of their legacy screwmount gear in a couple of
> decades, citing parts unavailability.  They won't even look at a screwmount
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the parts or the knowledge to do the modification themselves.  Remember that
> this modification has been unavailable for over thirty years.

OKAY that makes much sense, probably not worth the effort and money anyway
considering other bodies out there, to be had.

> If you want MLU you can get it with a couple of the K-mount Pentax cameras
> and lenses, and you will probably be able to spend less for a camera and
> normal lens that is already so equipped, rather than paying for a
> modification.

Yes but like I have mentioned in another thread and in this one, I have a recent
purchase of a Pentax K2, it's got MLU quite perfectly.

> You mentioned that you wanted a camera that could exploit the full-aperture
> metering lugs on the SMC Takumar lenses.  Only Pentax cameras supported full
> aperture metering, specifically the Spotmatic-F, The ES and the ES-II, none
> of which could support MLU without a special modification (except for the
> undocumented workaround that I described in a previous post).

Do you mean I could not expect FAM from a Yashica TL Electro-X body with
Pentax made M42 lens mounted on it?

> Pentax (Asahi Optical, actually) did not license their full-aperture lens
> system to any other manufacturer.  You can mount those SMC Takumars on other
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> should not plan on mating an SMC Takumar with another brand of camera body
> and having both MLU and full-aperture metering.

Then you are more of an expert than I the newbie.  That Yashica would no doubt
need Yashica lenses to fully work properly.

> If you are not heavily invested in SMC Takumars, you might want to consider
> Nikon bodies and lenses.  Nikon had a number of models with MLU and wide
> open metering.
>
> Is MLU that much of a factor that you cannot just live without it?

Well... it stops vibration towards very sharp artistic and macro work.  I believe it
is important and I love the feature.  My past cameras that had it were a '97 Pentax 67
and a 70's Canon F1, then I had a later F1n that does not have it, because the mirror
mechanism in it is so *fine* it didn't need it.  And I did some macro work with that
body that proved it.

But now, financial times are very different.  And I have been given some Pentax K
M lenses by an uncle, along with a non working me-super and a 422D flash.  So I
bought the K2.  Now I see all these great prices on beautiful glass in the form of
M42, and so as well, curious about bodies with MLU.  Okay?  Very simple curiosity
on my part.

Thank you for your support, you have helped, much appreciated.

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}<)))*>  Giant_Alex
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jeremy - 26 Jul 2006 13:59 GMT
> Do you mean I could not expect FAM from a Yashica TL Electro-X body with
> Pentax made M42 lens mounted on it?

Depends upon your definition of what constitutes working "properly."

The Takumars will mount on other M42 screwmount cameras.  They will focus
correctly.  But the SMC Takumars, with their proprietary full aperture
metering lugs, will not operate in that mode--you will have to stop them
down when metering, just as you would have had to do in any of the Pentax
models that preceded the Spotmatic F.

So, the more correct answer is that, yes, the lenses will work on other
cameras, but you will not be able to exploit the full aperture metering
functions on any but 3 camera models: the Pentax Spotmatic-F, The Pentax ES
and the Pentax ES-II.

I have mixed feelings about full aperture metering.  The meter on the
Spotmatic-F comes on automatically whenever the lens cap is removed.  I
shoot with lens shades a lot, and that necessitates my unscrewing the lens
shade and replacing the lens cap, just to shut off the meter between shots,
in order to conserve the battery.  On my Spotmatic IIa (the previous
Spotmatic model), the meter is activated by a switch, and it automatically
shuts off after the shutter is fired (or it can be manually shut off using
the switch), which allows me to leave my lens uncapped with no risk of
depleting the battery.  I much prefer this to the automatic activation of
the Spotmatic-F.

The price to be paid is that the Spotmatic IIa does not support full
aperture metering.  Frankly I am quite comfortable with stop-down metering
on the Sp IIa.

The ES and ES-II camera support full aperture metering, and their meters
come on when the shutter button is pressed down halfway.  The meter does not
activate automatically whenever the lens cap is removed, like on the
Spotmatic-F.

There is a compromise that exacts a price on these models as well: the ES
cameras were oriented primarily toward aperture priority automatic exposure.
There is no metered manual mode.  If you switch the camera out of aperture
priority mode, the meter shuts off.  Yes, you can operate the camera
manually, but you'll have to use a handheld meter.  Also, the selection of
manual shutter speeds is limited--there are not as many speeds available as
on the Spotmatics.  So, the ES models are a pain for shooters that want to
take the controls manually.

In fairness to Pentax, the ES cameras were produced at a time when exposure
automation was in its infancy, and there were bugs that needed to be worked
out.

My current favorites are the P3n and the P30t, that use the "A" series
(Ka-Mount).  Those cameras have full metered manual mode--just like the
Spotmatics.  They also have aperture-preferred exposure, just like the
ES/ES-II.  They have advanced meter cells that respond faster and do not
have the memory effect of the CdS cells that were used on the M42 bodies.
They have reliable Seiko-Asahi electronic shutters.  They have memory lock,
allowing exposures to be locked in while the photographer re-composes the
shot (you can meter on the subject's face, for example, and then shift the
camera angle without losing the exposure for the subject's face).  They have
dedicated flash units that feature automatic flash exposure (non-TTL).  The
"A" lenses were optically redesigned to be sharper than the previous Pentax
lenses, and they featured multicoating on all lens surfaces (some of the SMC
Takumars had uncoated lens faces, like the front element of the 35mm f/3.5).
They had a program auto exposure option, which was specifically set to
minimize the effect of movement.  Pentax program mode always sought to use
the fastest shutter speed available in a given shot.  Some photographers do
not like that, but I think it is great.  If one wants to use slower shutter
speeds, or control depth-of-field, just switch to aperture priority mode.

So, for me, the P3n/P30t models offer all the features that I liked in the
Spotmatics and the ES models, with none of the compromises.  No MLU, but I
haven't found that to be problematic.  And the camera dies if the batteries
go dead, but it is hardly a burden to carry a backup set of batteries.
They're good for 10,000 exposures, and I'm not planning to spend an extended
time on some desert island.

The best thing about those models is that they afford full control to the
photographer.  You want manual--you've got manual.  You want auto
exposure--you've got 2 different auto-exposure modes.  You want dedicated
flash--you've got it, and you can also operate the flash manually, but I
can't imagine why anyone would want to.

Oh, and you have full aperture metering, along with depth-of-field preview!
For me, that's everything I require.
AAvK - 28 Jul 2006 08:37 GMT
> Depends upon your definition of what constitutes working "properly."
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> Oh, and you have full aperture metering, along with depth-of-field preview!
> For me, that's everything I require.

Now THAT is a WHOLE LOT of awesome and helpful information.  It tells me
a lot that I needed to know, and I never expect anyone to respond that much, the
text has been saved in txt.  Thank you very much!

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}<)))*>  Giant_Alex
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jeremy - 28 Jul 2006 13:42 GMT
> Now THAT is a WHOLE LOT of awesome and helpful information.  It tells me
> a lot that I needed to know, and I never expect anyone to respond that
> much, the
> text has been saved in txt.  Thank you very much!

If you are interested in these Pentax Spotmatics and ES
("Electro-Spotmatic") cameras I'd recommend two books:

1: The Pentax Way by Herbert Kepplar.  Get the eighth edition or later, as
that will cover all of the cameras up until the time that Pentax abandoned
the screwmount.

2: Honeywell Pentax Manual by Dr. Joseph Cooper.  Bound in loose-leaf
format, covers not only the entire camera/lens/accessories lines but also
gives a good overview on photo techniques.

It seems strange to me that modern camera lines do not have entire books
dedicated to them and their features.  But back in the 70s, the Spotmatic
and the ES were among the premier lines of 35mm equipment, and the fact that
so many of them are still in regular use today testifies to their ruggedness
and optical quality.  I own 3 Spotmatics and one each of the ES and ES-II.
They have never failed me, and their lenses compare favorably with what is
out today (OK, so they don't autofocus, but I'd never want that feature.
But those metal lens barrels and that silky-smooth focusing are wonderful).
Tony Polson - 23 Jul 2006 12:05 GMT
>Curious to the experts in this group, was there ever an M42 camera body that
>has mirror lock up?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>post work, and MLU would help because there is a plethora of great lenses for
>low prices out there.  Any advice?

Buy one of the several Pentax K bayonet mount SLR bodies with mirror
lock up, and use a Pentax brand M42 to K mount adapter.

Examples include the Pentax KX and LX.  

The LX is a fine system SLR but you need to be aware of a potential
problem with the mirror mechanism, which includes several rubber
components that need replacing after 15-20 years.  This costs about
50% more than a normal CLA.  Ask for evidence that this has already
been done by a camera repairer who is experienced in servicing the LX,
or allow for the cost when making an offer for a camera which has not
yet had the work done.
AAvK - 24 Jul 2006 04:16 GMT
> Buy one of the several Pentax K bayonet mount SLR bodies with mirror
> lock up, and use a Pentax brand M42 to K mount adapter.

OK right, I know about that, BUT, does that adapter translate the stop-down
from the K-mount to the M42's stop down pin?  That would be important.

> Examples include the Pentax KX and LX.

Actually I have the K2 which has MLU, great camera too. Very advanced
for it's time.

> The LX is a fine system SLR but you need to be aware of a potential
> problem with the mirror mechanism, which includes several rubber
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> or allow for the cost when making an offer for a camera which has not
> yet had the work done.

Yeah, those are beautiful but too much for me.  I'll stick with K2s.

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Chris Loffredo - 23 Jul 2006 13:03 GMT
> Curious to the experts in this group, was there ever an M42 camera body
> that has mirror lock up?
>
> Reason I ask: I love to do artist shots when I can, then scan the film
> into Photoshop for further post work, and MLU would help because there
> is a plethora of great lenses for low prices out there.  Any advice?

A number of early Prakticas didn't have instant mirror return, meaning
the mirror stayed up after a shot until the film was wound.

*Maybe" a lens can be mounted with the mirror up and the mechanism which
lowers the mirror *might* not get damaged when blocked by the lens.

A long shot, but the old Prakticas are cheap...
AAvK - 24 Jul 2006 13:05 GMT
> A number of early Prakticas didn't have instant mirror return, meaning
> the mirror stayed up after a shot until the film was wound.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> A long shot, but the old Prakticas are cheap...

Sounds like whole lot to work there, and a lotsa research to get there too.

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TLR - 23 Jul 2006 16:07 GMT
> Curious to the experts in this group, was there ever an M42 camera body
> that has mirror lock up?

Yes. My first SLR, the Yashica TL Electro X has it.
Look at this page with the manual
http://www.butkus.org/chinon/yashica_tl_electro-x/yashica_tl_electro-x.htm
Tomas.
jeremy - 23 Jul 2006 19:03 GMT
> Curious to the experts in this group, was there ever an M42 camera body
> that has mirror lock up?

KEH has a Spotmatic II for sale with the mirror lockup option, but at almost
$900 bucks, I can think of better options . . .

http://www.keh.com/ProductImages/fullSize/PS02999074826.jpg
AAvK - 24 Jul 2006 13:04 GMT
> KEH has a Spotmatic II for sale with the mirror lockup option, but at almost
> $900 bucks, I can think of better options . . .
>
> http://www.keh.com/ProductImages/fullSize/PS02999074826.jpg 

Crickey that's outragious!  WAY out there!

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AAvK - 24 Jul 2006 13:02 GMT
> Yes. My first SLR, the Yashica TL Electro X has it.
> Look at this page with the manual
> http://www.butkus.org/chinon/yashica_tl_electro-x/yashica_tl_electro-x.htm
> Tomas.

Why yes it does, and it takes a current 6 volt silver battery as well, that is good!
Thanks for that suggestion.

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eugen.mezei@gmx.de - 27 Jul 2006 08:55 GMT
AAvK schrieb:

> Curious to the experts in this group, was there ever an M42 camera body that
> has mirror lock up?

Most M42-Cosinas have a "hidden" MLU. When you shot with the self
timer, as the shutter button is depressed, the mirror flips up and stay
locked but the shutter will be released in about 10 seconds after.
10 seconds is plenty to get rid of vibrations.

Most of the Cosinsas have this feature, for sure the Hi-Lite 405 has
it. (Btw. it has spot metering too. Anybody knows what is the measuring
angle of this spot?)
Take a look at http://www.butkus.org/chinon/#COSINA for some Cosina
manuals. If still interested I can look at the other M42-Cosinas I own
for this feature.

IMHO Cosinas are cheap this day and badly subestimated. All of them are
solidly built and most of them are real good performers.

Eugen
TLR - 27 Jul 2006 14:53 GMT
> AAvK schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> manuals. If still interested I can look at the other M42-Cosinas I own
> for this feature.

In fact, this feature is common to all the manual cameras with the metal,
vertical running Copal Square shutter: cameras with M42mm mount from Cosina,
Ricoh, Chinon and Yashica TL Electro-X (I suspect that they are Yashicas
with horizontal cloth shutters)  and the current Voigtlander Bessaflex TM.
Tomas.
jeremy - 27 Jul 2006 17:30 GMT
> In fact, this feature is common to all the manual cameras with the metal,
> vertical running Copal Square shutter: cameras with M42mm mount from
> Cosina, Ricoh, Chinon and Yashica TL Electro-X (I suspect that they are
> Yashicas with horizontal cloth shutters)  and the current Voigtlander
> Bessaflex TM.

Are they still using that Copal shutter in the Bessaflex?
TLR - 27 Jul 2006 20:18 GMT
>> In fact, this feature is common to all the manual cameras with the metal,
>> vertical running Copal Square shutter: cameras with M42mm mount from
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Are they still using that Copal shutter in the Bessaflex?
Yes. See at Cameraquest http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtFlexTM.htm
Tomas.
 
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